Page 41 of 44 FirstFirst ... 313940414243 ... LastLast
Results 401 to 410 of 436

Thread: Wikileaks show WMD Hunt Continued in Iraq-With Surprising Results

  1. #401
    Steve
    tryreading's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Central Florida
    Last Seen
    02-26-13 @ 07:37 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    4,809

    Re: Wikileaks show WMD Hunt Continued in Iraq-With Surprising Results

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    Basically, I would rather the govt work on the intelligence that they have and be wrong, rather then not act because the intelligence has some doubters or is not 100.0% (as no intelligence ever is) and have the situation turn far worse.
    The government must acquire accurate intelligence. Period.

    There was conflicting intelligence on Iraq. Our government preffered selectively choosing information that seemed to make their case for the Iraq war that they already wanted. This has happened before, and gives good grounds for questioning US leadership when it comes to attacking another country.

    You have said something recklessly irresponsible about going to war with the intelligence that you have, even if this intelligence is wrong. Don't really know how to respond to that. Don't see how anybody can think that's reasonable. It does give insight into your standards for an invasion of another country. Your bar is set very low for something so profoundly important.
    Last edited by tryreading; 11-21-10 at 12:18 AM.
    Do not write in this space!

  2. #402
    Sage

    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    USA
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 11:31 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    9,812

    Re: Wikileaks show WMD Hunt Continued in Iraq-With Surprising Results

    Quote Originally Posted by tryreading View Post
    The government must acquire accurate intelligence. Period.

    There was conflicting intelligence on Iraq. Our government preffered selectively choosing information that seemed to make their case for the Iraq war that they already wanted. This has happened before, and gives good grounds for questioning US leadership when it comes to attacking another country.
    You sure do seem to have the wrong idea of how intelligence works. It's rarely going to be perfect. You will have conflicting information. It's the nature of the beast. A determination has to be made based on the entirety of the intelligence obtained. This will sometimes mean that you have to analyze conflicting information and make the determination.


    You have said something recklessly irresponsible about going to war with the intelligence that you have, even if this intelligence is wrong. Don't really know how to respond to that. Don't see how anybody can think that's reasonable. It does give insight into your standards for an invasion of another country. Your bar is set very low for something so profoundly important.
    You go to war based on the best intelligence available. When the preponderance of evidence points you to believe that "A" is true, then you have to act as if "A" is accurate.

  3. #403
    Steve
    tryreading's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Central Florida
    Last Seen
    02-26-13 @ 07:37 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    4,809

    Re: Wikileaks show WMD Hunt Continued in Iraq-With Surprising Results

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    You sure do seem to have the wrong idea of how intelligence works. It's rarely going to be perfect. You will have conflicting information. It's the nature of the beast. A determination has to be made based on the entirety of the intelligence obtained. This will sometimes mean that you have to analyze conflicting information and make the determination.



    You go to war based on the best intelligence available. When the preponderance of evidence points you to believe that "A" is true, then you have to act as if "A" is accurate.
    If you'll look, part of my point was the government often will not make a decision based on the entirety of the intelligence, but on the parts that support their agenda.

    So you don't want the government to go to war based mostly on intelligence. That's only one tool. There are also the considerations of history, common sense, pragmatism, feasibility, level of trust in the current government, current ongoing military operations, international relationships, etc.

    After Iraq, we should never go to war again based mostly on intelligence, which is obviously very easy to manipulate and fabricate.
    Do not write in this space!

  4. #404
    Sage

    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    USA
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 11:31 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    9,812

    Re: Wikileaks show WMD Hunt Continued in Iraq-With Surprising Results

    Quote Originally Posted by tryreading View Post
    If you'll look, part of my point was the government often will not make a decision based on the entirety of the intelligence, but on the parts that support their agenda.

    So you don't want the government to go to war based mostly on intelligence. That's only one tool. There are also the considerations of history, common sense, pragmatism, feasibility, level of trust in the current government, current ongoing military operations, international relationships, etc.

    After Iraq, we should never go to war again based mostly on intelligence, which is obviously very easy to manipulate and fabricate.
    Your opinion is noted. When you become president you will be able to implement whatever policies youu want using whatever criteria you want.

    However, I for one, hope that you do not become president. Sometimes intelligence is all that we will have, and actions will have to be taken based on the preponderence of information available.
    Last edited by buck; 11-21-10 at 12:09 PM.

  5. #405
    Professor

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Grand Junction, CO 81506
    Last Seen
    05-30-11 @ 07:02 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    2,236

    Re: Wikileaks show WMD Hunt Continued in Iraq-With Surprising Results

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    When you don't act on the intelligence that you have, you end up with N.K. You can claim that Bush lied about the intelligence prior to the Iraq war. However, those assertions are not quite as certain as you choose to believe.

    Basically, I would rather the govt work on the intelligence that they have and be wrong, rather then not act because the intelligence has some doubters or is not 100.0% (as no intelligence ever is) and have the situation turn far worse.
    Let's be logical about this. The enemy is only one suicide bomber that appears out of nowhere (Iraq), or in small groups that move around (Afghanistan), and no way to pin them down.

    So all intelligence is left with are possible phone taps with gibberish that may or may not be reliable, whistle blowers, and occasional statements by Arabs on the net that may or may not have value.

    It all breaks down to NO intelligence, only educated guesswork, imaginative possibilities, seek and destroy all groups gathered outside the cities because they may or may not be the enemy.

    ricksfolly

  6. #406
    Sage

    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    USA
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 11:31 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    9,812

    Re: Wikileaks show WMD Hunt Continued in Iraq-With Surprising Results

    Quote Originally Posted by ricksfolly View Post
    Let's be logical about this. The enemy is only one suicide bomber that appears out of nowhere (Iraq), or in small groups that move around (Afghanistan), and no way to pin them down.

    So all intelligence is left with are possible phone taps with gibberish that may or may not be reliable, whistle blowers, and occasional statements by Arabs on the net that may or may not have value.

    It all breaks down to NO intelligence, only educated guesswork, imaginative possibilities, seek and destroy all groups gathered outside the cities because they may or may not be the enemy.

    ricksfolly
    Yes, the fog of war does exist. However, I really hope you aren't suggesting that they not react to the intelligence. If they tapped a call indicating that individual A is going to blow up a jet but don't react to it then a few weeks later individual A blows up a jet, would you be among those claiming that the government should have done more? Same question if internet chatter about a specific action increased... I know I would be. I will obviously acknowledge that they will have to analyze that information, though.

  7. #407
    Sage
    Boo Radley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Last Seen
    11-22-17 @ 04:22 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    36,858

    Re: Wikileaks show WMD Hunt Continued in Iraq-With Surprising Results

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    When you don't act on the intelligence that you have, you end up with N.K. You can claim that Bush lied about the intelligence prior to the Iraq war. However, those assertions are not quite as certain as you choose to believe.

    Basically, I would rather the govt work on the intelligence that they have and be wrong, rather then not act because the intelligence has some doubters or is not 100.0% (as no intelligence ever is) and have the situation turn far worse.
    We didn't have any intel to act on with either Iraq or NK. That's the point here. If you take away Curveball, al Libi, and the heros in error, there's no intel at all that suggest we invade. It just isn't there. And as we ahd every reason to doubt Curveball, al Libi, and the heros in error, we should not have gone to war.

    And yes, the assertion that Bush lied is quite sound. He did not express the doubts, which is a lie of ommission at the very, very least. Not to mention that nothing supported gorwing and gathering anywhere.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  8. #408
    Sage

    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    USA
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 11:31 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    9,812

    Re: Wikileaks show WMD Hunt Continued in Iraq-With Surprising Results

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    And yes, the assertion that Bush lied is quite sound.
    The assertion that Bush believed the majority of intelligence that was provided to him (and hence did not lie) is also quite sound. It's fun to just make declaritive statements.

    He did not express the doubts, which is a lie of ommission at the very, very least.
    Silly little statement. Truly.

  9. #409
    Sage
    Boo Radley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Last Seen
    11-22-17 @ 04:22 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    36,858

    Re: Wikileaks show WMD Hunt Continued in Iraq-With Surprising Results

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    The assertion that Bush believed the majority of intelligence that was provided to him (and hence did not lie) is also quite sound. It's fun to just make declaritive statements.


    Silly little statement. Truly.
    Beleived what? The intel was that Curveball, al Libi and the heros in error were unreliable. So, exactly how does him presenting them as they were reliable show he belived the intel present to him? Please explain.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  10. #410
    Sage

    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    USA
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 11:31 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    9,812

    Re: Wikileaks show WMD Hunt Continued in Iraq-With Surprising Results

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Beleived what? The intel was that Curveball, al Libi and the heros in error were unreliable. So, exactly how does him presenting them as they were reliable show he belived the intel present to him? Please explain.
    You do realize that many times different individuals in the intelligence community will reach different conclusions? In other words, some people in the community reached the conclusion that the intelligence was unreliable. Others (most) reached the conclusion that the intelligence was accurate. Bush and most of his admin believed the consenus opinion that was presented.

    You seem to want to live in this ideal little world where the intelligence will only point in one conclusion. However, this is not the way intelligence works. It didn't work that was with NK. It's not working that way with Iran. Why would you think Iraq should be any different? The majority opinion in the intelligence community was that he had WMD. Added to the fact that he was ignoring UN resolution after UN resolution and was acting as if he had WMD programs (apparently to fool Iran, etc) and you get to the point where invasion is going to happen.

Page 41 of 44 FirstFirst ... 313940414243 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •