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Thread: Wikileaks show WMD Hunt Continued in Iraq-With Surprising Results

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    Re: Wikileaks show WMD Hunt Continued in Iraq-With Surprising Results

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    With reason and logic.
    you've already conceded that you have no degree (philosophy or otherwise), credentials, or claim to fame in regards to "reason and logic". Thus your appeal to "reason and logic" is highly suspect and rejected as nothing more than a differing opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    We factually increased the death rate by invading.
    the death rate over what time frame?

    I agree that invasion increases the death rate locally. But over time the invasion may have saved lives. E.G., if Geremany was invaded before it gained power for WW2 then the holocaust may not have happened and perhaps (but not certainly) more lives would have been saved in the long run (but perhaps that would cause other even worse events to unfold).


    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    All the problems with the sanctions were magi nified with war, and those deaths are not counted in the current death totals. We certainly wouldn't have spent the billion, trillions we've spent. Hard to argue otherwise. Nor would we have spent as many resources, espeically in lives.
    And how are you so certain that in the long run this is more expensive than the alternative?

    Do you understand how compound interest works? Do you understand why putting more money in an account early is exponentially better than spreading out deposits into that account over a long time, even if you put more money in for each deposit?
    If you believe in the Supernatural then you can become a millionaire!

    Questioning or criticizing another's core beliefs is inadvertently perceived as offensive and rude.

  2. #382
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    Re: Wikileaks show WMD Hunt Continued in Iraq-With Surprising Results

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    [you've already conceded that you have no degree (philosophy or otherwise), credentials, or claim to fame in regards to "reason and logic". Thus your appeal to "reason and logic" is highly suspect and rejected as nothing more than a differing opinion.
    So only those with a degree can use logic. Interesting. False and wrongheaded, but interesting.

    the death rate over what time frame?
    Eight years of war would be a good time frame.

    I agree that invasion increases the death rate locally. But over time the invasion may have saved lives. E.G., if Geremany was invaded before it gained power for WW2 then the holocaust may not have happened and perhaps (but not certainly) more lives would have been saved in the long run (but perhaps that would cause other even worse events to unfold).
    I see nothing that would support that. Much of the effects of war last much longer than the war itself, and are often more devestating than sanctions in the long run. And nothing about Iraq resembles Nazi Germany and holocost. There was no likleihood of genocide. In fact, that type of killing had already been done.

    Add to it that more killing will take place in the battle for power in iraq, and that much of the abuses during Saddams rein still take place today, and there is little reason to accpet your belief.


    And how are you so certain that in the long run this is more expensive than the alternative?

    Do you understand how compound interest works? Do you understand why putting more money in an account early is exponentially better than spreading out deposits into that account over a long time, even if you put more money in for each deposit?
    I understand fully, but this isn't a savings account. This is smashing something and hoping someone picks up the pieces. Human beings are far more unpredicitable than a savings account. We can't control what will happen and too often things go contrary to plan. At the end of the day, and there are already idications of this, we could end up with worse than we had. Iran is in a better position with Iraq for example. Millions have been displaced. Iraq has serious division, and American style divisions, but take up arms divisions. If Iraq ever settles into something better, it will be earned by Iraqis.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Wikileaks show WMD Hunt Continued in Iraq-With Surprising Results

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    And somehow ridiculously believe that N.Korea's nuke program only took 2 years to complete. Probably even shorter, since it was believed they had nuclear weapons before they finally declared themselves a nuclear power.

    I should join you in the clouds. I've always enjoyed far out trips.
    When you are dealing with members who refuse to admit mistakes and claim to "know-it-all" about an issue, then the best you can do is show how silly they look when they eventually slip up. Then enjoy the show as they dance about their mistake in an attempt save face.
    If you believe in the Supernatural then you can become a millionaire!

    Questioning or criticizing another's core beliefs is inadvertently perceived as offensive and rude.

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    Re: Wikileaks show WMD Hunt Continued in Iraq-With Surprising Results

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    When you are dealing with members who refuse to admit mistakes and claim to "know-it-all" about an issue, then the best you can do is show how silly they look when they eventually slip up. Then enjoy the show as they dance about their mistake in an attempt save face.
    That may be true, but go back and read, I never made the claim he states.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Wikileaks show WMD Hunt Continued in Iraq-With Surprising Results

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    No. I make no such claim. I said before Clinton. Agreements put the program on hold. Bush's actions restarted them. However, I would also argue that a combination of Bush and Clinton would have been a better policy than either by itself. Clinton engaged and got concessions, and Bush involved more countries. Together would ahve produced better results all around.
    Well, if you actually know the history, then you realize that some development occured while they were being declared isolated by the Clinton admin.

    But, just like you can't admit that, like bush, Clinton lied when he declared Iraq had WMD programs and stockpiles during the run-up to Operation Desert Fox, I can hardly expect you to admit some NK nuclear weapons and enrichment development took place under the Clinton admin.

    It must be nice to have your little hero to worship.

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    Re: Wikileaks show WMD Hunt Continued in Iraq-With Surprising Results

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    Well, if you actually know the history, then you realize that some development occured while they were being declared isolated by the Clinton admin.

    But, just like you can't admit that, like bush, Clinton lied when he declared Iraq had WMD programs and stockpiles during the run-up to Operation Desert Fox, I can hardly expect you to admit some NK nuclear weapons and enrichment development took place under the Clinton admin.

    It must be nice to have your little hero to worship.
    Actually, that's more claim than proven truth, which is why I mentioned the NYT's article before we started. I took a lot of heat because I doubted the claims back then, and the CIA admitted they didn't actually know what they claimed in that article. So I posted it several times back then, ending threads at the time without comment. But I won't dig for it again.

    And I never said Clinton didn't lie. Nor did I support Clinton's bombing. This is why I mention what appears to be a reading problem. What I do say is that Clinotn was less outrageious in his claim, and that his people said that threat was over after the bombing. So, you can't use what Clinton said to justify Bush years later.

    So, misrepresenting what is said is not good for civil discourse. So, don't do it.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Wikileaks show WMD Hunt Continued in Iraq-With Surprising Results

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    What I do say is that Clinotn was less outrageious in his claim, and that his people said that threat was over after the bombing.
    …Our objectives in this military action were clear: to degrade Saddam's weapons of mass destruction program and related delivery systems…
    …So long as Saddam remains in power he will remain a threat to his people, his region and the world…
    I don't see Clinton stating that the threat was eliminated, do you?

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    Re: Wikileaks show WMD Hunt Continued in Iraq-With Surprising Results

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    I don't see Clinton stating that the threat was eliminated, do you?
    It's degree. No one says there is absolutely not threat. Just not the type of threat that requires invasion. And remember, in regards to your first quote, Clinton's people declared that effort successful, his program degraded, his threat lessened. Again, you cannot justify Bush's statements are actions with Bill Clinton.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Wikileaks show WMD Hunt Continued in Iraq-With Surprising Results

    I am hopeful that even with the trip you are on, you can see a difference between:

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley
    and that his people said that threat was over after the bombing.
    and

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley
    his program degraded, his threat lessened.


    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    No one says there is absolutely not threat. Just not the type of threat that requires invasion.
    Clinton's admin said the pretty much the same about N.K. How'd that prediction work out? That's the problem with constantly kicking the can down the road. Eventually the can slices your foot open.

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    Re: Wikileaks show WMD Hunt Continued in Iraq-With Surprising Results

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    With reason and logic. We factually increased the death rate by invading. All the problems with the sanctions were magi nified with war, and those deaths are not counted in the current death totals. We certainly wouldn't have spent the billion, trillions we've spent. Hard to argue otherwise. Nor would we have spent as many resources, espeically in lives.

    Yeah, I'm pretty comfortable with my claim being likely.
    All those things and then some, including reigniting the longtime Sunni/Shia blood feud, and forcing millions of Iraqi families to leave the country.

    ricksfolly

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