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Thread: good for her. old lady shoots punk kid

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    Re: good for her. old lady shoots punk kid

    [
    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    I would intend to use it if they didn't back off. But I will always, and I mean always, give someone the opportunity to change their mind about continuing to threaten my life.

    Youíre misunderstanding my perspective, I think. A gun should stay holstered, away, hidden, unless lives are at risk. Stealing my TV or my car is not life threatening.

    If you just want to scare someone away, your gun should never leave its holster. Most confrontations can be resolved by keeping a clear head and talking your way out of it.

    However, if you find yourself in a truly life threatening situation, all you will likely have time to do is draw your weapon, unsafety, and pull the trigger. Any hesitation can be the difference between you or your attacker lying on the ground. Many people who carry concealed weapons do so with a full magazine and a round already in the chamber because thatís how fast things will be happening.

    Waving a gun is just giving your attacker more time to figure out a proper way to overcome your defense. Lives are saved by the element of surprise. You draw, you shoot. Anything else is only putting you in more danger.
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    Re: good for her. old lady shoots punk kid

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    I would intend to use it if they didn't back off. But I will always, and I mean always, give someone the opportunity to change their mind about continuing to threaten my life.


    Because I would prefer that someone walk away as opposed to having to shoot them? Because I don't *want* to kill someone?

    Pahlease. All the people who own guns don't WANT to shoot people. There are few people that actually have a hankering to go out and blow someone away. I would prefer someone walk away from me than have to kill them, and I will give them the opportunity to do so. Whether I have a knife, a gun, or a baseball bat. My first choice will ALWAYS be for them to desist in threatening me and walk away. If you think that not wanting to kill someone is a reason not to own a gun, then I feel pretty sorry for your attitude about the world.
    You're reading here from many posters who own and are proficient with firearms that one doesn't point a gun at ANYONE without intent to shoot. Nobody, and I mean nobody with brains, shoots to wound. Believe what you'd like. But while you're deciding whether or not you should fire, whether or not you should fire a warning shot, whether or not you should aim at his arm or his leg, the other guy just shot ya' in the head.

    The reason I say you shouldn't own a gun is not a take on your well-intentioned motives. It comes from my belief that, given your "shoot to wound" philosophy, a gun would probably get you killed -- when push came to shove.
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  3. #363
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    Re: good for her. old lady shoots punk kid

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    [

    You’re misunderstanding my perspective, I think. A gun should stay holstered, away, hidden, unless lives are at risk. Stealing my TV or my car is not life threatening.

    If you just want to scare someone away, your gun should never leave its holster.
    Seeing the gun IS what might make them back off. I can guarantee you that when I was being attacked, if I'd had a gun they wouldn't have gotten me down and most likely I wouldn't have had to shoot since they weren't armed. Seeing my gun would have made them leave me the **** alone. I wouldn't have had to shoot. But, if they made one more move towards me after seeing my weapon? Gun goes off. Period. End of story. But I WILL give them the opportunity to change their mind.

    However, if you find yourself in a truly life threatening situation, all you will likely have time to do is draw your weapon, unsafety, and pull the trigger. Any hesitation can be the difference between you or your attacker lying on the ground. Many people who carry concealed weapons do so with a full magazine and a round already in the chamber because that’s how fast things will be happening.
    I think I know the difference between when to fire immediately and when not to. And that's what I'm talking about. I DO know the difference. And firing a weapon is NOT always necessary.

    Waving a gun is just giving your attacker more time to figure out a proper way to overcome your defense. Lives are saved by the element of surprise. You draw, you shoot. Anything else is only putting you in more danger.
    It's giving them an opportunity to change their mind and live. I'm okay with that. I am not okay with living with any doubt that shooting and killing was necessary on my part. I would shoot if I have no other choice. Ditto for using any weapon.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    You're reading here from many posters who own and are proficient with firearms that one doesn't point a gun at ANYONE without intent to shoot.
    I would intend to shoot, if necessary.

    Nobody, and I mean nobody with brains, shoots to wound. Believe what you'd like. But while you're deciding whether or not you should fire, whether or not you should fire a warning shot, whether or not you should aim at his arm or his leg, the other guy just shot ya' in the head.
    You think I would hesitate if the other person had a gun? You really think I'm that much of an idiot? I'm talking about a situation where the gun is the upperhand. If they have a gun, and I have a gun, then it's a matter of who shoots first. If they are threatening me but do not have a gun and I do, then I let them know I have the upperhand and give them a second to contemplate that. If they wish to persist threatening me while my gun is aimed at them, then they'll feel a bullet.


    The reason I say you shouldn't own a gun is not a take on your well-intentioned motives. It comes from my belief that, given your "shoot to wound" philosophy, a gun would probably get you killed -- when push came to shove.
    I said I would pull a gun and give an attacker the opportunity to leave/submit before I shot. And that I could see certain situations wherein a warning shot (NOT 'shooting to wound') could and would be prudent. (such as getting someone's attention) And, I could see many a situation where I would prefer to shoot to wound, but I doubt I would be that good of a shot, so I'm just going to shoot to HIT.

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    Re: good for her. old lady shoots punk kid

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Hmm, maybe. I was inspired to buy a gun after watching the looting during the aftermath of Hurrican Andrew and having witnessed the looting during the LA riots first hand. I bought the gun, not to kill people, but to protect my property. I would never want to kill someone for stealing, but I would definitely try to hurt them, if I had to. So the notion that one has to shoot to kill in all situations is baloney.
    Laws vary from state to state, but most go something like this:
    1. You are not allowed to shoot someone to defend property only.
    2. Any time you shoot someone, it is normally considered "lethal force". Even if they don't die, shooting someone is typically considered evidence of intent to kill, even if you claim intent to wound.

    Admitting that you "shot to wound", can be used against you in court. It will be considered evidence that you did not consider the situation serious enough to warrant deadly force, yet as I mentioned, shooting someone AT ALL is usually considered deadly force regardless of your point of aim. In essence you are admitting to using a lethal weapon in a situation that you felt was not worth killing over. I'll grant you that this is a legal construct whose literal application probably goes outside of common sense in some cases, but it is a fact that admitting "I shot to wound" can put you in prison.

    This goes back to "when arrested, say NOTHING except 'I want my lawyer'."

    I am a former law enforcement officer. To my knowlege, "shooting to wound" is not a normal part of any PD's curriculum. Even a bullet in the arm can kill, by severing the brachial artery. A bullet in the foot is potentially fatal if infection sets in. In some few VERY RARE scenarios, a SNIPER may shoot to disable, but that is not typical.

    "Warning shots" are also disallowed in most if not all PD's. It was found that warning shots endangered bystanders too much. Tactically a warning shot takes you off target for a moment, and gives the perp a moment of time when he is not covered by your weapon.

    Now, about this business of "Waving a gun to scare someone off"... yes and no. As an LEO, if I drew a pistol it was with the intention of using it if necessary... but in some cases the person backed down at the last possible instant and saved their life thereby.

    Since leaving LE, as a private citizen with a concealed carry permit, I've been in some dangerous situations. Awareness and decision-making skills are critical, as I teach in my self-defense and handgunning classes. I don't want to ever be so far behind the curve that I am drawing against an already-drawn-gun... that's a good way to get killed, unless done from behind cover. For one example, I was once targeted for some kind of street-crime. One perp approached from the front, trying to get my attention. Being trained to watch for this kind of thing, I moved to one side and looked for the partner I assumed he probably had, and saw him coming up behind me. Both exhibited body language consistent with "threat behavior". Finding myself bracketed by two men of apparently criminal intentions, I put my hand on my weapon and prepared to draw. When they saw this, they both veered off in opposite directions and left the area. Had they not done so, I would have completed my draw if they continued to close on me, as 2 on 1 is legally equivalent to deadly force in my state. What would have happened at that point is pure speculation, but if they had immediately ceased their threatening behavior I would not necessarily have fired. Waiting until they had me pinned between them and a gun in my face or knife at my back would have been "less than ideal."

    On the "square range" you are commonly shooting at ranges of 7-25 yards. In the street, perps often wait until they have you up close, like arm's length or less, before they even let you see the weapon... and at that point you're in serious trouble, especially if he has a partner behind you.

    Things are not always black and white in the real world.
    Last edited by Goshin; 10-05-10 at 10:50 PM.

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    Re: good for her. old lady shoots punk kid

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    Seeing the gun IS what might make them back off. I can guarantee you that when I was being attacked, if I'd had a gun they wouldn't have gotten me down and most likely I wouldn't have had to shoot since they weren't armed. Seeing my gun would have made them leave me the **** alone. I wouldn't have had to shoot. But, if they made one more move towards me after seeing my weapon? Gun goes off. Period. End of story. But I WILL give them the opportunity to change their mind.


    I think I know the difference between when to fire immediately and when not to. And that's what I'm talking about. I DO know the difference. And firing a weapon is NOT always necessary.
    Then drawing the weapon wasn't necessary.


    It's giving them an opportunity to change their mind and live. I'm okay with that. I am not okay with living with any doubt that shooting and killing was necessary on my part. I would shoot if I have no other choice. Ditto for using any weapon.
    I promise you that in a life and death situation, you will not have time to evaluate your options as completely as you think.




    You think I would hesitate if the other person had a gun? You really think I'm that much of an idiot? I'm talking about a situation where the gun is the upperhand. If they have a gun, and I have a gun, then it's a matter of who shoots first. If they are threatening me but do not have a gun and I do, then I let them know I have the upperhand and give them a second to contemplate that. If they wish to persist threatening me while my gun is aimed at them, then they'll feel a bullet.
    You have no idea what the capabilities of your attacker are. If they are trying to hurt you, by the time you fully realize what they're doing, you may have lost your chance to use your defense. I'm telling you that if I, personally, were within five feet of you and you pulled a gun without immediately firing it, I would be the one holding your gun instead...not to mention that my concealed draw might be faster than yours. Your hesitation just may give me the chance to shoot you with the gun you didn't know I had.



    I said I would pull a gun and give an attacker the opportunity to leave/submit before I shot. And that I could see certain situations wherein a warning shot (NOT 'shooting to wound') could and would be prudent. (such as getting someone's attention) And, I could see many a situation where I would prefer to shoot to wound, but I doubt I would be that good of a shot, so I'm just going to shoot to HIT.
    How do you account for where your stray warning shot went? I really don't even know what to say to this... A gun is never a means to warn someone or get their attention.

    I respect your opinion. All I'm trying to tell you is that everything you think you know or you plan to do flies in the face of consistent training and real world experience by every organization that teaches the safe and appropriate use of firearms.
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    Re: good for her. old lady shoots punk kid

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    Then drawing the weapon wasn't necessary.
    If I'd had a gun, I wouldn't have been assaulted. Not having the gun means I was assaulted. How can you say that drawing it wouldn't have been necessary when not drawing it means I was assaulted?

    I promise you that in a life and death situation, you will not have time to evaluate your options as completely as you think.

    You have no idea what the capabilities of your attacker are. If they are trying to hurt you, by the time you fully realize what they're doing, you may have lost your chance to use your defense. I'm telling you that if I, personally, were within five feet of you and you pulled a gun without immediately firing it, I would be the one holding your gun instead...not to mention that my concealed draw might be faster than yours. Your hesitation just may give me the chance to shoot you with the gun you didn't know I had.
    Then I'm dead either way. I feel better knowing that I only shot if I had to.


    How do you account for where your stray warning shot went?
    Because I aim it.

    I really don't even know what to say to this... A gun is never a means to warn someone or get their attention.
    Us country folk beg to differ.

    I respect your opinion. All I'm trying to tell you is that everything you think you know or you plan to do flies in the face of consistent training and real world experience by every organization that teaches the safe and appropriate use of firearms.
    It doesn't fly in the face of my personal experience. If I'd had a gun when I was assaulted, I would NOT have been assaulted, and I would not have had to fire.

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    Re: good for her. old lady shoots punk kid

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    If I'd had a gun, I wouldn't have been assaulted. Not having the gun means I was assaulted. How can you say that drawing it wouldn't have been necessary when not drawing it means I was assaulted?
    The average attack takes place within arms reach. You don't have time to play "look at what I have." The last thing you want is to give a gun to the attacker that didn't have one a second ago. I can't say it enough: Draw, shoot.


    Then I'm dead either way. I feel better knowing that I only shot if I had to.
    Actually you don't feel anything. You're dead because you were careless and your attacker will likely hurt other people.


    Because I aim it.
    Your aim is off the attacker, again, giving them time to turn the tables on you.

    Us country folk beg to differ.
    A rapist in a back alley is not the same as a trespasser on your ranch, ma'am. You won't see them from across the hayfield.

    It doesn't fly in the face of my personal experience.
    I have nothing against you and I can't stop you from doing whatever you think is appropriate, but forgive me if I take proven training over anecdotal evidence.
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    Re: good for her. old lady shoots punk kid

    Quote Originally Posted by theangryamerican View Post
    The average attack takes place within arms reach. You don't have time to play "look at what I have." The last thing you want is to give a gun to the attacker that didn't have one a second ago. I can't say it enough: Draw, shoot.
    And I disagree. I know I would have had time.

    Actually you don't feel anything. You're dead because you were careless and your attacker will likely hurt other people.
    Fine, then I won't LIVE wondering if I killed someone unnecessarily. And I'm okay with that.

    Your aim is off the attacker, again, giving them time to turn the tables on you.

    A rapist in a back alley is not the same as a trespasser on your ranch, ma'am. You won't see them from across the hayfield.
    And I did say that I could see the benefit and usefulness of it in certain situations. And I can. And have. That includes someone coming onto the property and getting a warning shot from a distance. Or, two people down on the ground fighting and a warning shot in the air gets their attention and they stop trying to kill each other. Both situations that I've either witnessed or know a family member has done. I didn't say anything about a back alley, I said "certain situations", and those situations do exist.

    I have nothing against you and I can't stop you from doing whatever you think is appropriate, but forgive me if I take proven training over anecdotal evidence.
    That's fine for you, and I don't blame you. But I know my personal experiences and those of family members, and I know good and goddamn well that there are times when warning shots are appropriate and times when simply letting someone know you are armed is all you need to do. Situation de-escalated. Every situation? Absolutely not. But those situations DO exist and I've been in them.

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    Re: good for her. old lady shoots punk kid

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    And I disagree. I know I would have had time.
    You didn't have a gun in that situation, did you? If not, you have no way of knowing if they would have disarmed you.


    Fine, then I won't LIVE wondering if I killed someone unnecessarily. And I'm okay with that.
    Fine. No contention with that then.

    And I did say that I could see the benefit and usefulness of it in certain situations. And I can. And have. That includes someone coming onto the property and getting a warning shot from a distance. Or, two people down on the ground fighting and a warning shot in the air gets their attention and they stop trying to kill each other. Both situations that I've either witnessed or know a family member has done. I didn't say anything about a back alley, I said "certain situations", and those situations do exist.
    I'm not sure where you live, but both of those examples would've been against the law, even if you were carrying a permit, in most cities. You wouldn't be able to establish a legitimate need for self defense. In both instances, a call to the police would've accomplished the same thing and not been against the law. From your descriptions, it doesn't sound like use of a deadly weapon would've been merited in those situations.

    Btw, firing a blind shot into the air is one of the most irresponsible things a gun owner can do.

    That's fine for you, and I don't blame you. But I know my personal experiences and those of family members, and I know good and goddamn well that there are times when warning shots are appropriate and times when simply letting someone know you are armed is all you need to do. Situation de-escalated. Every situation? Absolutely not. But those situations DO exist and I've been in them.
    Fair enough. I can't argue with anecdotes.
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    Re: good for her. old lady shoots punk kid

    Replying to both Angry and River....


    I think the truth lies somewhere between your two positions.


    River, warning shots just aren't a good idea, and shooting to wound generally isn't either. Accuracy suffers under stress, and trying to hit an arm or leg is a good way to miss entirely. While I appreciate your desire not to kill anyone, and I share that desire, pulling a gun in a less than life-and-death situation escalates it to a life-and-death situation... and you need to be very cautious about that. I live out in the country too, but it isn't like the old days, when my Dad used to run trespassers off with a warning shot through their beer cooler.

    Angry, pulling a gun doensn't always mean firing it. If the perp is drawing a gun, yes. If the perp has a gun in hand... well you're already way behind the curve, but if you're going to try to out-Matt-Dillion him, yeah you'd better be shooting as soon as the muzzle is pointed at him. However, there are cases where it isn't always black and white. If you're drawing on a perp who is some distance away with a knife, threatening you and coming in your direction, and he sees the gun and suddenly whirls away to run, shooting him in the back is generally considered excessive. If you pull a gun because a pair of big men are threatening to kick your ass, prudence dictates giving them a chance to back down if they appear to be unarmed. There are times when a gun can be used to make someone back down, yes, though you never draw it unless you're willing to use it... thus, care should be taken about drawing at all.

    (BTW, laws vary on when you can legitimately pull a gun on an apparently unarmed perp. In my state, you can draw on multiple attackers. A small woman could pull a gun on a man who was threatening serious violence or violation of her person. A homeowner can pull a gun on - and shoot - practically any intruder... but this is one area where there is a lot of variation, so check your state laws on this to be safe.)
    Last edited by Goshin; 10-06-10 at 12:09 AM.

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