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Thread: Koch Industries Lawyer to White House: How Did You Get Our Tax Information?

  1. #111
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    Re: Koch Industries Lawyer to White House: How Did You Get Our Tax Information?

    The White House didn't respond to queries about Mr. Goolsbee's remark for weeks until GOP Senators requested an investigation. The Treasury's inspector general for tax matters has since announced such a probe, and last week White House spokesman Robert Gibbs finally got around to explaining that Mr. Goolsbee's statement "was not in any way based on any review of tax filings" and that he won't use the example again.
    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...151720874.html
    Again... this took a long time for the Open & Transparent Obama Administration to cough up an answer, and why in the world would they stop using the example if it's no worry?

    "Chairmen of either the Senate Committee on Finance or the House Ways and Means Committee are the only Members of Congress able to receive information protected by section 6103 and that is only upon written request in which specific individuals who may view the sensitive information are identified to the IRS," the Senators wrote.

    The statement is also viewed as "troubling" by the Senators because it was made shortly after the President highlighted the advocacy work of certain tax-exempt organizations funded by Koch Industries, Inc. and its owners, which are known to oppose the administration's policies. "We are concerned that the PERAB’s statement singling out Koch Industries, Inc. so soon after the President’s statement was politically motivated," they wrote.

    "This law was enacted as a result of the use of tax information for political gain during the Watergate scandal," the letter points out. "Congress sent a very clear message with the enactment of section 6103 that taxpayer privacy was extremely important."

    White House Under Fire Over Taxpayer Privacy
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  2. #112
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    Re: Koch Industries Lawyer to White House: How Did You Get Our Tax Information?

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    You should tell New Jersey that.

    S Corporation Status

    I guess New Jersey isn't a state to you. Or Pennsylvania. Or New York. Or Minnesota. Or Washington. You fail to understand the concept of required filings even if they do not affect taxes. Furthermore, no state bars you from filing additional optional information on formation.
    Is it reading comprehension or memory that you have problems with. I already stated that several states require individual state designation as S-Corps.

    Constantly claiming I don't have a clue and then running away from the majority of my posts is hardly a good tactic. You've fled from the entire argument about how S corp tax is not the same as C corp. Maybe you didn't like me pointing out how you think 500 = 1.



    How about you use the link I gave you? Or are you going to run away from that as well like you did your crackpot 500 layers of tax = 1 argument?
    I already explained it once and I'm not going to keep repeating myself since you obviously can't keep track of the thread.

    If you use snail mail or fax. Kansas charges for certain filings. Thanks for proving you didn't bother reading my link. Btw, you do realize Kansas requires S-corps to file as S-corps no?
    No, actually the state of Kansas doesn't.
    Holy crap. I can't believe I missed that. And I don't need to prove they are an S-corp.

    Scroll down that list. https://www.accesskansas.org/bess/fl...execution=e1s4

    How many pass through entities do you see?

    I got caught up in the S-corp problem without seeing Obama was also talking about LLCs, LPs and other passthroughs plenty of which are listed right smack on the Kansas search. Thanks Gill. You just proved Obama right. Koch is organized as partially a series of pass throughs. And don't even start talking about how LLC tax is the same as C-corp. Because that's even more different then S to C.

    Tell me does does Wikipedia tell you about bracket picking for consolidated returns? (hint: No). Seriously, you keep pretending I only get my info from Wikipedia. Too bad the stuff I'm saying isn't on wikipedia Tell me Gill, how did I get info from a place that doesn't have the info?

    lol. Some staffer just looked up the database, noticed the abundance of pass throughs and noted it down. How illegal was that? I've never had an opponent so thoroughly destroy their own argument like you just did.
    It's about time you admitted that states don't list corporations' filing status. If you had bothered to read the original information in the O.P., you would know your "breakthrough" information was addressed a long time ago by Koch's lawyers. Just because some Koch entities are LLCs or LPs doesn't mean they all are. It also has nothing to do with whether they pay corporate taxes or not.

    A simple question for you..... if the information is readily available through the various states, why didn't the Obama administration simply state this ???? They didn't did they??? No, they claimed they got the information through Forbes or testimony at the PERAB. Seems to me it would be simpler to point out your "breakthrough" information rather than go through the embarrassment they are enduring now or a possible judicial investigation. Perhaps the Obama administration should hire you since you obviously know much more about this than they do.

    • "The America Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money." -- Alexis de Tocqueville





  3. #113
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    Re: Koch Industries Lawyer to White House: How Did You Get Our Tax Information?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill View Post
    Is it reading comprehension or memory that you have problems with. I already stated that several states require individual state designation as S-Corps.
    Except you also said S election "has nothing to do with states." You tend to forget what you wrote. A lot.

    Clearly, the reading comprehension problem lies with you. Remember your asinine comment about S and C corp taxes being different only in semantics? How you have abandoned that line of reasoning.

    I already explained it once and I'm not going to keep repeating myself since you obviously can't keep track of the thread.
    Yeah. And I mocked you constantly for it. What kind of fool thinks that infinite layers of taxation is the same as one? You. That's who.

    How about this. I get what remains of $100 after it's taxed once. You get what remains of $100 after it's taxed 500 times at corporate rates. Tell me who end up with more money. According to you, we both end up with the same.

    Crazy? Yes. Stupid? Absolutely. Your argument? Exactly. You can keep pretending you know more then me, but your constant avoidance in actually addressing my examples shows you really don't get it.

    No, actually the state of Kansas doesn't.
    Go look up those statues again. There's a difference between making a state S election and filing your Federal S election with the state. Learn it.

    It's about time you admitted that states don't list corporations' filing status.
    Come again? The database link I posted shows that they do. Or maybe you are unaware of what the letters at the end of their names mean. Considering how you have utterly and completely failed to demonstrate any legal understanding of structure or taxation, that's a distinct possibility.

    If you had bothered to read the original information in the O.P., you would know your "breakthrough" information was addressed a long time ago by Koch's lawyers.
    None of which was not private. Furthermore, Obama did not actually specificy that Koch was an S-corp. He named off several types of pass throughs, which as my link to the Kansas database shows, include a number of Koch firms. I do love it when my opponent gives me the tools to utterly annihilate him.

    Just because some Koch entities are LLCs or LPs doesn't mean they all are.
    And that proves your point how? How does that prove that Obama is wrong? Oh wait, it doesn't.

    It also has nothing to do with whether they pay corporate taxes or not.
    Really. You are really arguing that Koch registered as pass through entities and then choose to elect to be taxed at corporate rates?

    You know you should have just given up once I posted that list of passthroughs.

    A simple question for you..... if the information is readily available through the various states, why didn't the Obama administration simply state this ????
    Actually they did. If you bothered to research anything, you would have noticed that the Administration stated that they got some of their info from Koch's own public information releases.

    They didn't did they???
    The world does not revolve around you. You not hearing about it does not mean it did not happen. How arrogant of you.

    No, they claimed they got the information through Forbes or testimony at the PERAB.
    Which are public as well.

    Seems to me it would be simpler to point out your "breakthrough" information rather than go through the embarrassment they are enduring now or a possible judicial investigation. Perhaps the Obama administration should hire you since you obviously know much more about this than they do.
    Done yet?

    Thanks Gill. Rarely do I see my opponents destroy their own arguments by giving me the necessary evidence.

    Btw, your avoidance of most of my points shows how weak you are as a debater.

    Tell me Gill, how did I get info from a place that doesn't have the info?

    It's hilarious how you think I know nothing about the subject...and then you run away from every technical challenge I make to you.
    Last edited by obvious Child; 10-14-10 at 02:42 AM.
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  4. #114
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    Re: Koch Industries Lawyer to White House: How Did You Get Our Tax Information?

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Except you also said S election "has nothing to do with states." You tend to forget what you wrote. A lot.
    Really? Is that what I said ?? Funny, I thought I said the following quote, which is quite a bit different than what you claim above.

    Really?? Designation as an S-Corps is not a state matter, it is strictly done through the IRS and state's have nothing to do with it with the exception of a couple that require state S-Corp filing and Texas is not one of them.
    Go look up those statues again. There's a difference between making a state S election and filing your Federal S election with the state. Learn it.

    Come again? The database link I posted shows that they do. Or maybe you are unaware of what the letters at the end of their names mean. Considering how you have utterly and completely failed to demonstrate any legal understanding of structure or taxation, that's a distinct possibility.
    I'm still waiting on you to show where S corps are shown in public information as you claimed for the entire thread. Give up on that???

    The world does not revolve around you. You not hearing about it does not mean it did not happen. How arrogant of you.
    Well, since you are obviously far more knowledgeable about everything in the world than I am, why don't you point out where they have claimed they got the info from state records.

    Here is what they have actually said on the matter:

    QUESTION: But it's being alleged that he got that information from IRS filings. I understand that he says -- administration officials say that he saw it in the public record somewhere.

    Can you just, sort of, point to where it might have been...

    GIBBS: I don't know the answer off the top of my head on that. Again, I can see if there's better information on that.
    Once again, looks like they need to contact you since you seem to know so much more than they do... or at least think you do.

    I'll ask you again, since you dodged last time. If you are right, why didn't they simply say they got the information from state records???? And, if you are right, why did they say Goolsbee was wrong to say what he did and it won't happen again ????

    • "The America Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money." -- Alexis de Tocqueville





  5. #115
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    Re: Koch Industries Lawyer to White House: How Did You Get Our Tax Information?

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Rarely do I see my opponents destroy their own arguments by giving me the necessary evidence.
    You do this repeatedly:
    Taxes; you claimed people are stupid about taxes, and then tried to defend the existing mess.. scraping the code wasn't possible.
    Autobahn. Remember that one?
    Shoe Box Death Traps? Yep, you again.
    Your attempt with Bremen? LOL.

    You are the master, and I see a similar complaint running through threads you participate in.

    Is it reading comprehension or memory that you have problems with. I already stated that several states require individual state designation as S-Corps.
    I already explained it once and I'm not going to keep repeating myself since you obviously can't keep track of the thread.
    Now, why would Team Obi wait weeks to answer, and why is their answer he won't do it again?

    .
    Last edited by zimmer; 10-14-10 at 08:36 AM.
    The Clintons are what happens...
    when you have NO MORAL COMPASS.

  6. #116
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    Re: Koch Industries Lawyer to White House: How Did You Get Our Tax Information?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gill View Post
    Really? Is that what I said ?? Funny, I thought I said the following quote, which is quite a bit different than what you claim above.
    Get on Gill's Endless Fail Train:

    OK, you've proven that you don't have a clue, which I already knew. You obviously don't even know how a corporation files for S status. hint: states have nothing to do with it.
    I'm still waiting on you to show where S corps are shown in public information as you claimed for the entire thread. Give up on that???
    If you give up on your asinine argument that S corp and C corp taxes are the same sure. But not being able to find S corp filing at least on a public database (which does not mean that calling them will not find the filing information, which as you earlier pointed out IS kept on record) does not mean that the Administration broke any laws. You yourself provided the necessary evidence to annihilate your own argument. Funny stuff there.

    Well, since you are obviously far more knowledgeable about everything in the world than I am, why don't you point out where they have claimed they got the info from state records.
    Let's recap

    1) The information on pass through is publicly accessible.
    2) The information on Koch was on their own website.
    3) The information on Koch was in their own press releases.

    Need I go on?


    I'll ask you again, since you dodged last time. If you are right, why didn't they simply say they got the information from state records???? And, if you are right, why did they say Goolsbee was wrong to say what he did and it won't happen again ????
    Because they say alot of stuff. You destroy your own argument via providing the data base showing that Obama was in fact correct and that anyone can get that information legally. And now you want to change your argument. First you and others tried to argue that what was said was private. Too bad you basically shot yourself in the foot there. Nice try on changing your argument there.

    Still think that 500 layers of taxation = 1?

    Tell me Gill, how did I get info from a place that doesn't have the info?

    You can pretend I don't know anything. But you can also keep pretending you aren't constantly running away from technical challenges on the subject.

    So wanna take the bet? Let's both invest $100. But I get my profits from an S. You get yours from a C. Who ends up with more all things being equal?
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

  7. #117
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    Re: Koch Industries Lawyer to White House: How Did You Get Our Tax Information?

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    You do this repeatedly:
    Taxes; you claimed people are stupid about taxes, and then tried to defend the existing mess.. scraping the code wasn't possible.
    Apparently your capacity to understand reform is limited.

    Autobahn. Remember that one?
    Yes. Your inability to read was quite disturbing.

    Shoe Box Death Traps? Yep, you again.
    Your constant use of the fallacy of raising the bar was rampant in that one too.

    Your attempt with Bremen? LOL.
    Come again?

    You are the master, and I see a similar complaint running through threads you participate in.
    People like you don't like me...because you can't win an argument.

    It's hilarious how you are thanking a guy who gave me the database to utterly destroy your argument.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

  8. #118
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    Re: Koch Industries Lawyer to White House: How Did You Get Our Tax Information?

    People like you don't like me...because you can't win an argument.
    ROTFLOL... no Obvious Child... people like me simply tire of your lying and deceiving MO.

    Autobahn.
    Shoe Box death traps.
    Scrap the tax code.
    Bremen.

    All cases where you slit your own throat, and in the case of taxes you buried yourself with your own admitted anger with your first post... I had no idea what kind of werkzeug you were then, but had an immense laugh nonetheless... it was simply too funny watching someone rant on and on and then make the other person's case right out of the box because the poster's overzealous arrogance got the better of him. It's still hilarious as it's perhaps the fastest job of defeating one's own argument I've seen on DP.

    .
    Last edited by zimmer; 10-15-10 at 04:51 AM.
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  9. #119
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    Re: Koch Industries Lawyer to White House: How Did You Get Our Tax Information?

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    If the administration revealed protected details of how Koch filed through it's S corp, then in fact, the administration violated privacy laws, since s corps are filed on individual taxes; privacy laws are protected under the privacy act. You're wrong, unless you want to display your tax law prowess explaining to us how the privacy act is applied to s crops vs. c corps. Care to take that challenge?
    This has largely degraded into a bunch of personal sniping...but you're so wrong on this that it's ridiculous.

    By your standards (and Koch's lawyers) if I called my dad's old company JO Construction LLC - by saying LLC and then explaining how LLCs pay taxes, I'm violating privacy law.

    That is not the case and it's foolish to believe so.

  10. #120
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    Re: Koch Industries Lawyer to White House: How Did You Get Our Tax Information?

    Quote Originally Posted by FilmFestGuy View Post
    This has largely degraded into a bunch of personal sniping...but you're so wrong on this that it's ridiculous.

    By your standards (and Koch's lawyers) if I called my dad's old company JO Construction LLC - by saying LLC and then explaining how LLCs pay taxes, I'm violating privacy law.

    That is not the case and it's foolish to believe so.
    You're right, the thread has degraded, but that is what happens when a serial prevaricator enters the discussion full of sound, fury and arrogance. It's the old saying, you can't teach a pig to fly and if you try you only get covered in his crap. So, some threads will turn to crap when pigs enter the discussion.

    Here are the questions submitted to and accepted by the Inspector General:
    As a result, we ask that you obtain and review a transcript of the August 27, 2010, press briefing to determine the basis for the Administrations employees’ statements and review the PERAB’s work in preparing its report on corporate tax reform. In particular, we ask you to address the following questions.

    1) Did Administration employees, including PERAB employees, have access to tax returns and return information in compiling the PERAB report?

    2) If yes, how many companies’ tax returns did the PERAB employees review and did they follow the procedures prescribed under the regulations governing section 6103 for accessing and protecting taxpayer information?

    3) Did Administration employees, including PERAB employees, violate section 6103 when they discussed the tax status of Koch Industries, Inc. and its related companies?

    4) If violations of 6103 did not occur, what was the basis for the statement regarding Koch’s legal and tax status and was the statement appropriate?

    The United States Senate Committee on Finance: Newsroom - Ranking Member's News
    Here is the code they cite:
    United States Code: Title 28,1603. Definitions | LII / Legal Information Institute

    Again... why would Team Obi forbid their teammates from making these statements in the future if it's all fine and dandy?

    .
    Last edited by zimmer; 10-15-10 at 05:27 AM.
    The Clintons are what happens...
    when you have NO MORAL COMPASS.

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