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Thread: Bill Kevorkian Gates on Death Panels

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    Re: Bill Kevorkian Gates on Death Panels

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Indeed. I don't quite understand why people think it's better for death panels to be completely closed off from public review, without any public transparency rather then having public input and oversight. Really, sunlight is the best disinfectant and people like Zimmer are arguing for no sunlight. Do we want to know how these decisions are being made? Absolutely. Well, that goes for me. I don't think having life and death decisions made in some back office of an insurance agency who fights tooth and nail to prevent you from knowing anything is a good idea. Maybe some people do?
    Insurance companies don't have death panels because they can't determine who gets what treatment. They merely decide what they're going to pay for, and that doesn't prevent people from using other options. Currently in the US, patients have multiple options. You can buy insurance that covers everything, you can pay for all of your medical costs out of pocket, you can do a combination of the first two options, or you can also go through bankruptcy if it comes down to it. The only reason that they don't have medical bankruptcy in single payer countries like Canada, is because it isn't an option. If you get turned down for treatment, your only recourse is to leave the country for treatment. That's closer to a death panel than anything we have in the US.
    If you expect people to be rational, you aren't being rational.

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    Re: Bill Kevorkian Gates on Death Panels

    Quote Originally Posted by mpg View Post
    Insurance companies don't have death panels because they can't determine who gets what treatment.
    Say what? Really? Insurance companies deny coverage all of the time to people for treatment. Where did you get the idea that insurance companies don't deny coverage?

    They merely decide what they're going to pay for, and that doesn't prevent people from using other options.
    Say what? Are you really arguing that insurance companies never flat out deny certain treatments?

    Currently in the US, patients have multiple options. You can buy insurance that covers everything, you can pay for all of your medical costs out of pocket, you can do a combination of the first two options, or you can also go through bankruptcy if it comes down to it.
    But that doesn't address my point. Insurance companies denying treatment and fighting for years to deny treatment is effectively a death panel. By stating policy of not covering X, Y and Z and then fighting against claims until the patient is dead, they have effectively acted as a death panel.

    The only reason that they don't have medical bankruptcy in single payer countries like Canada, is because it isn't an option. If you get turned down for treatment, your only recourse is to leave the country for treatment. That's closer to a death panel than anything we have in the US.
    Not quite. If you can't get the surgery in the first place to even declare bankrupcy, that's functionally the same as the Canadian problem.
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    Re: Bill Kevorkian Gates on Death Panels

    I canceled the collision insurance on my car, but that doesn't stop me from taking my car to a body shop. I've done the same thing with my health.
    If you expect people to be rational, you aren't being rational.

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    Re: Bill Kevorkian Gates on Death Panels

    Quote Originally Posted by mpg View Post
    Insurance companies don't have death panels because they can't determine who gets what treatment. They merely decide what they're going to pay for, and that doesn't prevent people from using other options. Currently in the US, patients have multiple options. You can buy insurance that covers everything, you can pay for all of your medical costs out of pocket, you can do a combination of the first two options, or you can also go through bankruptcy if it comes down to it. The only reason that they don't have medical bankruptcy in single payer countries like Canada, is because it isn't an option. If you get turned down for treatment, your only recourse is to leave the country for treatment. That's closer to a death panel than anything we have in the US.
    Except we do not "turn down" anyone for treatment

    With a rider

    IF you have a terminal condition like extreme old age you will not be admitted to ICU unless you will only be there for a short time - i.e. overnight stay post op

    But of course in America where it pays to put Great great grandma, who has been quietly dying in a local nursing home the last 29 years through 6 months of ICU interventions because ICU is refunded really really well and the hospital makes $$$$$$$ from each admission like this
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    Re: Bill Kevorkian Gates on Death Panels

    Quote Originally Posted by mpg View Post
    I canceled the collision insurance on my car, but that doesn't stop me from taking my car to a body shop. I've done the same thing with my health.
    ICU STARTS at $3,000 per day
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    The internet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhoea -- massive, difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind- boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it.


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    Re: Bill Kevorkian Gates on Death Panels

    Quote Originally Posted by bowerbird View Post
    Except we do not "turn down" anyone for treatment

    With a rider

    IF you have a terminal condition like extreme old age you will not be admitted to ICU unless you will only be there for a short time - i.e. overnight stay post op

    But of course in America where it pays to put Great great grandma, who has been quietly dying in a local nursing home the last 29 years through 6 months of ICU interventions because ICU is refunded really really well and the hospital makes $$$$$$$ from each admission like this
    So you're saying that ICUs are being overused? If so, then I guess you agree that we don't currently have death panels in the US.
    If you expect people to be rational, you aren't being rational.

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    Re: Bill Kevorkian Gates on Death Panels

    Quote Originally Posted by mpg View Post
    So you're saying that ICUs are being overused? If so, then I guess you agree that we don't currently have death panels in the US.
    One in five deaths in the USA happen in ICU - that is not one in five patients die in ICU - that is one in five deaths

    That suggests that you are admitting EVERYONE to ICU regardless of effectiveness of treatment or prolongation of agony.

    And if you think there is nothing worse than death you have NEVER seen what ICU can do to a patient
    Greenhouse gases: Any gas that, by an accident of chemistry, happens to absorb radiation of a type that the Earth, by an accident of history, would like to lose.
    The internet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhoea -- massive, difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind- boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it.


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    Re: Bill Kevorkian Gates on Death Panels

    Dr. Jack Kevorkian is a great man. He did a great thing for people. The fcat he was imprisoned is a travesty.
    “The means of defense against foreign danger historically have become the instruments of tyranny at home."
    -James Madison

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    Re: Bill Kevorkian Gates on Death Panels

    Quote Originally Posted by bowerbird View Post
    One in five deaths in the USA happen in ICU - that is not one in five patients die in ICU - that is one in five deaths

    That suggests that you are admitting EVERYONE to ICU regardless of effectiveness of treatment or prolongation of agony.

    And if you think there is nothing worse than death you have NEVER seen what ICU can do to a patient
    I don't think it made it into the final bill, but when reform was being debated, there were those who wanted doctors to discuss other options with their terminally ill patients. I thought that that was a good idea, but I don't see why the doctors need to be prodded by the government. They should be doing it already, but if government prodding is needed to get doctors to do it, that's fine by me.
    If you expect people to be rational, you aren't being rational.

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    Re: Bill Kevorkian Gates on Death Panels

    Quote Originally Posted by mpg View Post
    I don't think it made it into the final bill, but when reform was being debated, there were those who wanted doctors to discuss other options with their terminally ill patients. I thought that that was a good idea, but I don't see why the doctors need to be prodded by the government. They should be doing it already, but if government prodding is needed to get doctors to do it, that's fine by me.
    There is a method of assessing the patients probable survival - although it is a little time consuming so can't be done in an emergency situation. Basically we will not admit to ICU if the APACHE III score is less than a certain number although that is a little age and circumstance dependent. I.e. a young mother would get admitted no matter how near or even beyond certainty that she would not survive because we have to give them a chance

    We will admit someone sometimes for palliative care because it is the only single room available and the family want to be with the person

    Compassion plays a BIG part in decision making - and that goes BOTH ways - ICU can be a messy, horrible death
    Greenhouse gases: Any gas that, by an accident of chemistry, happens to absorb radiation of a type that the Earth, by an accident of history, would like to lose.
    The internet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhoea -- massive, difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind- boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it.


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