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Bush-Cheney campaign manager, ex-chairman of Republican Party set to come out as gay

Re: Ken Mehlman reveals he's gay

And? Seriously...your point is? I dont disrespect your opinion that you think homosexuality is wonderful and desirable and something you want for your children.

Vance, I don't have a point. I have a sister who is gay, I recounted our interaction.

I have a daughter, she is straight. At one time she was bi-curious. Life is life. She is able-bodied, and sound of mind and body. When I consider all that could befall her, finding out that she is gay would just be a "Okay, honey; love you!" moment.
 
Re: Ken Mehlman reveals he's gay

Vance, I don't have a point. I have a sister who is gay, I recounted our interaction.

I have a daughter, she is straight. At one time she was bi-curious. Life is life. She is able-bodied, and sound of mind and body. When I consider all that could befall her, finding out that she is gay would just be a "Okay, honey; love you!" moment.

Would it shock you to know that my response to a gay child would be the same?
 
Re: Bush-Cheney campaign manager, ex-chairman of Republican Party set to come out as

I'd wait till he actually.. comes out gay? Yeah that would be a good first step. A Blog claims, and unless Mehlman is trying to hurt the GOP, coming out now, this close to an election smells right fishy.

funny......he's out. so fishy.
 
Re: Bush-Cheney campaign manager, ex-chairman of Republican Party set to come out as

Actually, now would be the perfect time for him to come out. This would offset some of the thoughts of independents that the GOP is hostile and bigoted, which it really is not. This would be a good step to show that the GOP really does have a big tent - Not nearly as big as Reagan's was, but a good start nonetheless.

really? you might not be hostile and bigoted, but i would bet you a million bucks you'll find more hostile homophobes in the GOP than the other side. you're not naive.......and i feel sorry for mehlman, he chose a party in which he couldn't live freely until he actually quit his job.
 
Re: Ken Mehlman reveals he's gay

Would it shock you to know that my response to a gay child would be the same?

The same as mine, or the same as to your sister?
 
Re: Ken Mehlman reveals he's gay

I would hate it if my morals and values were dictated just because it made someone else feeeeeeeel bad.

If I were your sister, you'd be out of my life forever. Especially with the indignant way you treat people here.

And if I were your child, my response would be the same.
 
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Re: Ken Mehlman reveals he's gay

The same as mine, or the same as to your sister?

The same as yours to my child. I would love them unconditionally...just as I do now with all of my children. And the same as i do with my sister in law. I love her...I support her relationship. I dont agree with it but then, its not my choice nor life. And for what its worth, we get along great.

Thats the beauty of that whole 'tolerance' thing.
 
Re: Ken Mehlman reveals he's gay

What does that have to do with the fact that there are very few differences between the dems and reps on the issue of gay rights as a whole?



Mehlman's said that he only recently came to this realization, so I don't think that's the issue.

that i don't believe, not for a minute.
 
Re: Ken Mehlman reveals he's gay

If I were your sister, you'd be out of my life forever. Especially with the indignant way you treat people here.

And if I were your child, my response would be the same.

This is me laughing at you.

This is precisely why I dont go to the gay marriage threads. I can offer my love and respect without endorsing behavior i dont agree with...and invariably intolerant assholes jump in with "AAAAUUUUGGGHHH YOU ARE A BIGOT!!! YOU ARE A RACIST". So I just dont bother.

So now instead of offering my first response...the "Im sorry you feel that way" comment, then because of your response may may feel free to assume my second response...
 
Re: Ken Mehlman reveals he's gay

The same as yours to my child. I would love them unconditionally...just as I do now with all of my children. And the same as i do with my sister in law. I love her...I support her relationship. I dont agree with it but then, its not my choice nor life. And for what its worth, we get along great.

Thats the beauty of that whole 'tolerance' thing.

I've been waiting for one answer to one question and now that I know it's in your real life: how do you tell them that you value their relationship less than someone else's?
 
Re: Ken Mehlman reveals he's gay

This is me laughing at you.

This is precisely why I dont go to the gay marriage threads. I can offer my love and respect without endorsing behavior i dont agree with...and invariably intolerant assholes jump in with "AAAAUUUUGGGHHH YOU ARE A BIGOT!!! YOU ARE A RACIST". So I just dont bother.

So now instead of offering my first response...the "Im sorry you feel that way" comment, then because of your response may may feel free to assume my second response...

On one hand - you say you love someone. On the other, you say you value their relationship as less than your own or others.

Why? And I do "tolerate" your views and respect your right to have them. But why do I just have to accept them if I believe they are wrong?
 
Re: Ken Mehlman reveals he's gay

I've been waiting for one answer to one question and now that I know it's in your real life: how do you tell them that you value their relationship less than someone else's?

Oh no...Ive ANSWERED your question...you just dont like the answer. Your ploy is 'supposed' to make me feel bad that I dont change my opinion just because people i know and care about are gay.

We are done with this discussion, you and I. I have no desire to communicate with an angry, hate filled intolerant bigot that cant respect other peoples opinions. Shame on you. You MIGHT consider practicing some of that tolerance and acceptance you preach. Or not. You and people like you are the reason why some folk go from being accepting and understanding while not full on embracing to adversarial.
 
Re: Ken Mehlman reveals he's gay

On one hand - you say you love someone. On the other, you say you value their relationship as less than your own or others.

Why? And I do "tolerate" your views and respect your right to have them. But why do I just have to accept them if I believe they are wrong?

Im guessing you cant see the irony in the response you just gave...
 
Re: Ken Mehlman reveals he's gay

Im guessing you cant see the irony in the response you just gave...

From Google dictionary:

tol·er·ate/ˈtäləˌrāt/Verb
1. Allow the existence, occurrence, or practice of (something that one does not necessarily like or agree with) without interference.

ac·cept/ ækˈsɛpt/Verb (used with object)
1. To take or receive (something offered); receive with approval or favor

See the difference? I tolerate your views. I do not accept them. There is a difference.

It's not intolerant to challenge someone's view if you believe it to be wrong from your moral perspective.

If an Evangelical knocks on my door and tries to convert me to their interpretation of Christianity, are they being intolerant? By your definition, yes.

By my definition, no. They're trying to change my mind. They might even offend me with something they say (God knows it's happened before), but that doesn't make them intolerant.

I honestly didn't want to offend you and will apologize if I have. But I'm seriously trying to understand the motivation. I don't doubt your love for your family. But it seems to me that in a debate on equality, you're not siding with them. That's the part I have a hard time with.

I could never vote to prevent someone I love from finding their happiness (if said happiness is legal and with a consenting adult).
 
Re: Ken Mehlman reveals he's gay

I could never vote to prevent someone I love from finding their happiness (if said happiness is legal and with a consenting adult).

Well, I can tell you what my viciously abusive, deranged lunatic of a mother said when I tried (as an adult) to confront her on the damage she did as a parent.

*No insult intended, Mr. Mack*

"It's like give a six year-old crayons and telling them to create a Van Gogh. They can't. Whatever Van Gogh possessed that made such beauty possible, they don't have. They just draw a picture, doing the best they can with what they've got. And that's what I did."

I think VM is right on the point that given who he is, his life experiences, what he has seen, learned, and believed - he is doing the best he can with what he has. And that is tolerance.
 
Re: Ken Mehlman reveals he's gay

VM,

I speak to this from the point of having a sister-in-law who refuses to speak to half of her family over this issue because she's SO offended by homosexuality that she's ensconced herself in a Pennsylvania trailer (not implying that everyone against gay marriage lives in a trailer) and refuses to speak to her parents because they didn't kick out the gay son.

As a result, her children don't see their grandparents their uncles and cousins.

So again, I'm sorry if I get a little angry at times and I'm sorry to have over-spoken.

I do tolerate your view. I'm just trying to get to heart of it because it is difficult for me to understand it. (And, of course, it would be amazing if you changed your mind, but I'm aware that's unlikely to happen).
 
Re: Ken Mehlman reveals he's gay

I could never vote to prevent someone I love from finding their happiness (if said happiness is legal and with a consenting adult).

"Legal" is not an abstract concept, it's something that society decides. Unless you're saying you'd support a ban on sodomy in a state where it was already legal, whether or not the law says that something is permitted is irrelevant to the moral question.

If you found out that your sister was in love with your brother, would you tell her that you value her happiness and relationship less than you value that of everyone else?
 
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Re: Ken Mehlman reveals he's gay

Well, I can tell you what my viciously abusive, deranged lunatic of a mother said when I tried (as an adult) to confront her on the damage she did as a parent.

*No insult intended, Mr. Mack*

"It's like give a six year-old crayons and telling them to create a Van Gogh. They can't. Whatever Van Gogh possessed that made such beauty possible, they don't have. They just draw a picture, doing the best they can with what they've got. And that's what I did."

I think VM is right on the point that given who he is, his life experiences, what he has seen, learned, and believed - he is doing the best he can with what he has. And that is tolerance.

Not sure...but I think the Good Reverend would approve of this as a backhanded compliment...I believe that is his precursor to dating...

If my views were such that the death penalty was right and i believed in it, but then a child of mine committed an act deserving of it, should i then change my position because it is no longer convenient?

Conversely, If I was opposed to the death penalty should I change that view because someone I care about was killed?

If I am opposed to abortion do I suddenly become pro abortion just because a child of mine decides she needs to have one? If I am pro abortion do I suddenly become anti abortion ecause the girlfriend of a son of mine wants to terminate his baby?

I dont alter my beliefs and morals based on whether or not they are convenient. I have a positive relationship with my children and in laws. I am very much comfortable loving them, standing for their happiness, even if I disagree with their choices. You alter your views however you choose. Not my business. I dont CARE if you would be happy your son was gay. I say good for you...good for BOTH of you. If one of my own children told me that I would say...find love...find happiness. I wouldnt kick them out, banish them from my presence, or treat them or their partner badly. That I disagree with them would be something THEY would have to consider. If I have a child that said dad...Sally and I have decided we are going to get pregnant and live together and not get married I would have the same response. Again...up to THEM to be all pissy if (or that) I disapprove. Up to ME to continue to treat them with love and respect.
 
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Re: Ken Mehlman reveals he's gay

VM,

I speak to this from the point of having a sister-in-law who refuses to speak to half of her family over this issue because she's SO offended by homosexuality that she's ensconced herself in a Pennsylvania trailer (not implying that everyone against gay marriage lives in a trailer) and refuses to speak to her parents because they didn't kick out the gay son.

As a result, her children don't see their grandparents their uncles and cousins.

So again, I'm sorry if I get a little angry at times and I'm sorry to have over-spoken.

I do tolerate your view. I'm just trying to get to heart of it because it is difficult for me to understand it. (And, of course, it would be amazing if you changed your mind, but I'm aware that's unlikely to happen).

I appreciate very much your words. I hope some day your family can know happiness. I think thats an individual choice. I think the situation you describe is tragic and absolutely unnecessary. Sounds to me like the person totally offended could use a little help herself. Again...I hope for your families healing and happiness.
 
Re: Ken Mehlman reveals he's gay

From Google dictionary:

tol·er·ate/ˈtäləˌrāt/Verb
1. Allow the existence, occurrence, or practice of (something that one does not necessarily like or agree with) without interference.

ac·cept/ ækˈsɛpt/Verb (used with object)
1. To take or receive (something offered); receive with approval or favor

See the difference? I tolerate your views. I do not accept them. There is a difference.

It's not intolerant to challenge someone's view if you believe it to be wrong from your moral perspective.

If an Evangelical knocks on my door and tries to convert me to their interpretation of Christianity, are they being intolerant? By your definition, yes.

By my definition, no. They're trying to change my mind. They might even offend me with something they say (God knows it's happened before), but that doesn't make them intolerant.

I honestly didn't want to offend you and will apologize if I have. But I'm seriously trying to understand the motivation. I don't doubt your love for your family. But it seems to me that in a debate on equality, you're not siding with them. That's the part I have a hard time with.

I could never vote to prevent someone I love from finding their happiness (if said happiness is legal and with a consenting adult).

The problem is not with the definition of tolerance or approval. the IRONY comes with your comment...why do I just have to accept them if I believe they are wrong. And my response is very simply...thats precisely what I have said for 93 posts now. I have stated I can love and accept people and respect their decisions and choices, even if I view their choices and lifestyle as 'wrong'. Acceptance of them doesnt require me to change. And I dont expect you to change.
 
Re: Ken Mehlman reveals he's gay

The problem is not with the definition of tolerance or approval. the IRONY comes with your comment...why do I just have to accept them if I believe they are wrong. And my response is very simply...thats precisely what I have said for 93 posts now. I have stated I can love and accept people and respect their decisions and choices, even if I view their choices and lifestyle as 'wrong'. Acceptance of them doesnt require me to change. And I dont expect you to change.

Fair enough. I accept YOU. I tolerate the belief I disagree with.

:peace
 
Re: Ken Mehlman reveals he's gay

Fair enough. I accept YOU. I tolerate the belief I disagree with.

:peace

And the light shined down from the heavens...and there was peace. And it was good. ;)
 
Re: Ken Mehlman reveals he's gay

"Legal" is not an abstract concept, it's something that society decides. Unless you're saying you'd support a ban on sodomy in a state where it was already legal, whether or not the law says that something is permitted is irrelevant to the moral question.

If you found out that your sister was in love with your brother, would you tell her that you value her happiness and relationship less than you value that of everyone else?

I agree. It IS something that society decides, up to a point, where it becomes mob rule, and the tryanny of the majority decides. Luckily, in the US, we have a court system that prevents tyranny of the majority.
 
Re: Ken Mehlman reveals he's gay

"Legal" is not an abstract concept, it's something that society decides. Unless you're saying you'd support a ban on sodomy in a state where it was already legal, whether or not the law says that something is permitted is irrelevant to the moral question.

If you found out that your sister was in love with your brother, would you tell her that you value her happiness and relationship less than you value that of everyone else?

The reasons for objecting to that might be more valid, which is why each issue stands on its own. Laws have to have a just cause behind them in order to stand, at one level or another. We can't be so arbitrary that we say short people can't marry, or fat people can't watch TV. We have to show some reasonable justification, more than just a majority disapproves.
 
Re: Ken Mehlman reveals he's gay

The reasons for objecting to that might be more valid, which is why each issue stands on its own. Laws have to have a just cause behind them in order to stand, at one level or another. We can't be so arbitrary that we say short people can't marry, or fat people can't watch TV. We have to show some reasonable justification, more than just a majority disapproves.

What is the justification for telling two adults (your brother and your sister) that their relationship is worth less than that of everyone else and that they don't deserve to marry? Does that excuse justify the harm being inflicted on them?
 
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