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The 911 Hard Hat Pledge

TacticalEvilDan said:
He said "freedom," not "total freedom."

Probably because there is no such thing in any society on the face of the Earth as "total freedom." :lol:
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Only in your little Libbo world. To most of us, there's a difference between, "total freedom", and, "lawlessness".
 
Orion said:
You are entitled to your opinion of the man. I personally don't know enough about him to say, but based on his actions I don't really have a problem with him.
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WTF does he have to do build a god damn shrine to the hijackers themselves?

That seems like a really nitpicky reason to not want the community centre built.
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A) It's not a community center it's a Mosque.

B) How is being opposed to an Imam who is overtly pro-theocracy and anti-secularism being "nit picky"?


The general public will be able to go there to partake in the various activities offered in the centre, including sports and learning workshops. It will also have open spaces for rent for various cultural activities. That makes it a community centre. Sorry you can't see that.
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They will be allowed there so that they may receive Dawa, it is a Mosque the same way the Evangelical Mega-Churches which invite non-Born Again Christians and non-Christians to attend and use the numerous facilities so that they can proselytize to them, are still Churches. If it was a community center it would be offering religious services to all members of the community, the prayer area would be non-denominational or they wouldn't be offering religious services at all. And if you supported freedom then you wouldn't be supporting a Mosque being built at ground zero which is going to be run by an overt Islamist.
 
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Agent Ferris said:
WTF does he have to do build a god damn shrine to the hijackers themselves?
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Really? He's building a shrine in honour of the attackers? Link?

Agent Ferris said:
A) It's not a community center it's a Mosque.
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Doesn't fit the definition one, especially given the range of activities that will go on there. Sorry.

Agent Ferris said:
B) How is being opposed to an Imam who is overtly pro-theocracy and anti-secularism being "nit picky"?
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What do his beliefs have to do with you? The U.S. will never endorse shariah law because it's against the federal constitution for the government to favour a religion.

Agent Ferris said:
They will be allowed there so that they may receive Dawa, it is a Mosque the same way the Evangelical Mega-Churches which invite non-Born Again Christians and non-Christians to attend and use the numerous facilities so that they can proselytize to them, are still Churches.
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I see no evidence to support this claim. All religions want new followers, that's not news.

Agent Ferris said:
If it was a community center it would be offering religious services to all members of the community, the prayer area would be non-denominational or they wouldn't be offering religious services at all.
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That would not be part of my criteria for calling it a community centre. Just because a religious organization opens a building with community services, one of which endorses their faith, it does not make them a church or a mosque, nor does it make it any less of a community centre.. it just makes it more Muslim friendly. The fact that the public is included and can go there for various events shows that it's more inclusive, not exclusive.

Agent Ferris said:
And if you supported freedom then you wouldn't be supporting a Mosque being built at ground zero which is going to be run by an overt Islamist.
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It's not at ground zero, and no matter how many times you say it, it will never be true. And you are on doubtful ground as it is trying to prove it's a full on mosque.
 
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apdst said:
Only in your little Libbo world.
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I love how you call me a libbo just because I disagree with you.

apdst said:
To most of us, there's a difference between, "total freedom", and, "lawlessness".
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In which case you'll have no difficulty whatsoever describing this "total freedom" to me and pointing out where on the planet it exists.
 
Orion said:
Really? He's building a shrine in honour of the attackers? Link?
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[sarcasm]Yes, he's building a shrine to the hijackers.[/sarcasm] :roll:

Doesn't fit the definition one, especially given the range of activities that will go on there. Sorry.
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Mosque - any place of Muslim worship. A jami-masjid or Friday Mosque is a major mosque where weekly prayer services are performed and a sermon or khutbah is given.

What do his beliefs have to do with you? The U.S. will never endorse shariah law because it's against the federal constitution for the government to favour a religion.
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The National Socialist Party will very likely not be able to obtain political power in this country either, does that mean we should not condemn them?

I see no evidence to support this claim. All religions want new followers, that's not news.
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I know it's not news, of course this place will be offering Dawa to the non-Muslim people who use the facilities, the same as anyother Mosque.

That would not be part of my criteria for calling it a community centre. Just because a religious organization opens a building with community services, one of which endorses their faith, it does not make them a church or a mosque, nor does it make it any less of a community centre.. it just makes it more Muslim friendly. The fact that the public is included and can go there for various events shows that it's more inclusive, not exclusive.
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Yes yes a community center that only offers religious services to a certain religion. :roll: This is a community center like the Evangelical Mega-Churches are community centers.

It's not at ground zero, and no matter how many times you say it, it will never be true. And you are on doubtful ground as it is trying to prove it's a full on mosque.
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You don't have a clue what you are talking about this building is part and parcel to ground zero it was actually struck by the landing gear of one of the planes that hit the building.
 
Agent Ferris said:
[sarcasm]Yes, he's building a shrine to the hijackers.[/sarcasm] :roll:
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You suggested it, not me.

Agent Ferris said:
Mosque - any place of Muslim worship. A jami-masjid or Friday Mosque is a major mosque where weekly prayer services are performed and a sermon or khutbah is given.
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Then why are the creators calling it a community centre? Are you going to claim they're lying now?

Agent Ferris said:
The National Socialist Party will very likely not be able to obtain political power in this country either, does that mean we should not condemn them?
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I don't know?

Agent Ferris said:
Yes yes a community center that only offers religious services to a certain religion. :roll: This is a community center like the Evangelical Mega-Churches are community centers.
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If you say so.

Agent Ferris said:
You don't have a clue what you are talking about this building is part and parcel to ground zero it was actually struck by the landing gear of one of the planes that hit the building.
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What does that mean, part and parcel? That it was near ground zero? It's two blocks away from the crash site. Are you suggesting that all buildings within several blocks of the incident should require buildings that meet with the approval of the public, just because you have some weird attachment to a tragedy? Kind of reminds me about how Muslims are having a Ramadan celebration on 9-11 and people are calling it a terrorism celebration. Must everything be associated with your fixation on history? Seriously, get over yourselves.

So what if it was struck by debris? Most of Manhattan had debris scattered everywhere, and people were choking on the other side of the island. Am I supposed to care about what you think qualifies as 'acceptable' to occupy the radius of ground zero? It's their private property and they can do whatever they want with it. To suggest they are gloating about the 9/11 attacks is absurd and there is no proof other than paranoid rantings of pundits and their dimwitted followers.
 
Here's my take :

I believe that it's distasteful for the owners to build this mosque in such a close proximity to 9-11... we have the right to protest the builders and to speak out against it, and attempt to urge the owners to choose a different location, however, we should not infringe on their right to build it simply because we find it distasteful. This will set A VERY BAD precedent.

So, if they can't find the builders that will work on the project because of its distasteful nature then they will have to cave to public pressure and build elsewhere, however, if this is done through a legal battle and banning them from building there, then it will but another hole in the already tattered remains of the constitution.

In much the same way that I would speak out against racist groups, and condemn their speech as abhorrent... but they must be allowed to speak their minds or I'm providing the means for my own opinions to be stifled later on.
 
Orion said:
Then why are the creators calling it a community centre? Are you going to claim they're lying now?
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It fits the textbook definition of a Mosque, call me when they offer religious services to non-Muslim members of the community and then we can call it a community center.

I don't know?
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:roll:

What does that mean, part and parcel? That it was near ground zero?
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No that it is ground zero.

It's two blocks away from the crash site.
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It's part of the crash site it was struck by the landing gear of one of the planes.

Are you suggesting that all buildings within several blocks of the incident should require buildings that meet with the approval of the public, just because you have some weird attachment to a tragedy?
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It isn't just a building within several blocks of the incident it was a building actually hit by a significantly large piece of the plane that struck one of the towers, it is part and parcel to ground zero.

[
Kind of reminds me about how Muslims are having a Ramadan celebration on 9-11 and people are calling it a terrorism celebration.
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Proof or it hasn't happened.

Must everything be associated with your fixation on history? Seriously, get over yourselves.

So what if it was struck by debris? Most of Manhattan had debris scattered everywhere, and people were choking on the other side of the island.
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Not just debris but a huge piece of one of the actual planes.

Am I supposed to care about what you think qualifies as 'acceptable' to occupy the radius of ground zero? It's their private property and they can do whatever they want with it.
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Yes they can, good luck getting workers to build it or truckers to deliver the building material, or building material providers to sell to them.

To suggest they are gloating about the 9/11 attacks is absurd and there is no proof other than paranoid rantings of pundits and their dimwitted followers.
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No proof except the action of building the Mosque itself. Would you support building an Orthodox Cathedral in the town of Srebrenica? Would you not question the motivations behind the group making the proposal for that Cathedral?
 
BmanMcfly said:
Here's my take :

I believe that it's distasteful for the owners to build this mosque in such a close proximity to 9-11... we have the right to protest the builders and to speak out against it, and attempt to urge the owners to choose a different location, however, we should not infringe on their right to build it simply because we find it distasteful. This will set A VERY BAD precedent.

So, if they can't find the builders that will work on the project because of its distasteful nature then they will have to cave to public pressure and build elsewhere, however, if this is done through a legal battle and banning them from building there, then it will but another hole in the already tattered remains of the constitution.

In much the same way that I would speak out against racist groups, and condemn their speech as abhorrent... but they must be allowed to speak their minds or I'm providing the means for my own opinions to be stifled later on.
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They have every right to build there and we retain the rights to refuse to enter into contractual obligations to trade our labour for their capital and encourage others to do the same.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
Listen, Agent Ferris, you're on my ignore list. Whenever you reply to anything I say, you're either wasting your keystrokes or committing a lie by omission (by making it look like you actually have a point worth making to which I am somehow unable to respond).

I just figured I'd point that out.
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Debate through ignore... very mature...
 
Hoplite said:
Sounds pretty ****ing stupid. It's private property THREE BLOCKS away from "ground zero". I cant believe the staggering hypocrisy of people who are SERIOUSLY suggesting that building this is anything to be angry at.

I agree with a previous poster, I'd be willing to pitch in on the construction crew just to torque the OP's poster and his ilk off.
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Hey, they have the RIGHT to build there, but construction workers don't have the right to decide not to work on it?!?!?
 
ludahai said:
Hey, they have the RIGHT to build there, but construction workers don't have the right to decide not to work on it?!?!?
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No apparently we can now be compelled to trade our labour for their capital through involuntary contractual obligations. So much for property rights. :roll:
 
Agent Ferris said:
WTF does he have to do build a god damn shrine to the hijackers themselves?
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That'd be a start.

America is predicated on, among other things, freedom of religion; the freedom to believe as you want to believe.

The building of this center is breaking no local, state, or federal laws. There is no legal grounding to block the construction of the center. "Cuz we don' want it" is not acceptable grounds
 
Hoplite said:
That'd be a start.

America is predicated on, among other things, freedom of religion; the freedom to believe as you want to believe.

The building of this center is breaking no local, state, or federal laws. There is no legal grounding to block the construction of the center. "Cuz we don' want it" is not acceptable grounds
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I understand that they have every legal right to build it. But once again we have the right not to trade our labour for their capital.

Good luck getting the building materials from a domestic provider, and if you get the materials from a foreign provider good luck getting them off the dock, and if you manage to get them off the dock then good luck getting the teamsters to cross a picket line, and if you get the teamsters to cross a picket line good luck getting more than just you to help build it.

Have fun with that, see you in about 30 years after you finish floors 1 through 2.
 
Agent Ferris said:
I understand that they have every legal right to build it. But once again we have the right not to trade our labour for their capital.
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And that's fine, there are plenty of people who will. Hell, I need a job, I'd do it.

Good luck getting the building materials from a domestic provider, and if you get the materials from a foreign provider good luck getting them off the dock, and if you manage to get them off the dock then good luck getting the teamsters to cross a picket line, and if you get the teamsters to cross a picket line good luck getting more than just you to help build it.
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Oh please. Welcome to Capitalism. Yeah, some people may not want to take part but I promise you, there will not be a significant slow-down in construction.

People happily produce Neo-Nazi, NAMBLA, and Christian Dominionist paraphernalia and materials now in the US as well as rape porn and snuff films. They will have NO problem finding help.
 
Hoplite said:
And that's fine, there are plenty of people who will. Hell, I need a job, I'd do it.

Oh please. Welcome to Capitalism. Yeah, some people may not want to take part but I promise you, there will not be a significant slow-down in construction.

People happily produce Neo-Nazi, NAMBLA, and Christian Dominionist paraphernalia and materials now in the US as well as rape porn and snuff films. They will have NO problem finding help.
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lol, this is New York City, without the support of the Unions **** doesn't get built. Have fun trying though.
 
Agent Ferris said:
lol, this is New York City, without the support of the Unions **** doesn't get built. Have fun trying though.
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Whatever.

If wishes were fishes, we'd all have a lot more Omega 3 in our diets.
 
This is liberty at work.

Those who own the property have the right to have a mosque built.

Those with the skills and know how have just as much right to not build it.
 
FilmFestGuy said:
So many people taking so much joy in disallowing American citizens from enacting their protected civil rights.

#1 - It's 2 blocks from Ground Zero - so it's not a "Ground Zero Mosque".

#2 - It's an Islamic Community Center that include - along with prayer space - a basketball court, a theater, and is open to the entire public. Thus, it is not only NOT a "Ground Zero Mosque" because it's not at Ground Zero, it's also not even a Mosque - no more than St. Mary's Hospital is a Church because it has a chapel in it.

#3 - This is a yet another instance of Conservatives (and wimpy a-holes like Harry Reid) reveling in the restriction of someone's rights. Gotta take away the rights of gays in California to marry; gotta prevent Muslims from building a Community Center; gotta take citizenship rights away from immigrants.

The only threat to freedom I see comes from the likes of Newt Gingrich, Sarah Palin, Michele Bachmann, and their supporters.

If you are against this, then you are in favor of any group preventing the construction of any building on private land anywhere simply because they might take offense to it. Go ahead. Open that can of worms.

It will very likely get built and there will be people who will build it - in a down economy (especially for construction workers), intelligent beings will take the money.
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The 1st amendment is for govt, not the people. We can silence each other within legal limits, all we want. It's a nice Democrat talking point though.
 
This thread is revealing the cracks in the fault line here.

One side insists it's entirely about freedom of choice, the First Amendment, etc.; it doesn't matter what they do with it; they're entitled to do it and that's all we care about.

But then when some people say "fine, but I'm not going to build it" -- which is a perfectly valid choice to make in a free society -- suddenly it's about MORE than just the First Amendment.

If it were about the First Amendment, period, these individual people choosing not to help build the place would be a non-issue. I don't why anyone whose actual priority is FREEDOM should care.
 


This seems relevant.
 
Agent Ferris said:
It fits the textbook definition of a Mosque
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[citation needed]

Agent Ferris said:
call me when they offer religious services to non-Muslim members of the community and then we can call it a community center.
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:roll:

Agent Ferris said:
No that it is ground zero.
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What proof do you have?

Ground Zero, if you ask the common person, is a SPECIFIC spot on or next to which this project is not.

Agent Ferris said:
It's part of the crash site it was struck by the landing gear of one of the planes.
Ever think that debris... travels? Debris was found a great distance from the respective crash sites, yet that doesn't magically make that place the crash site itself.


Agent Ferris said:
Yes they can, good luck getting workers to build it or truckers to deliver the building material, or building material providers to sell to them.
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If they are really dedicated, they will find a way to get what they need.


Agent Ferris said:
No proof except the action of building the Mosque itself.
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So basically, you have no proof at all?

Agent Ferris said:
Would you support building an Orthodox Cathedral in the town of Srebrenica?
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Can we stick to analogies and questions relevant to AMERICA since this is going on in AMERICA and not thousands of miles away in a different country with different values?

A country thousands of miles away with different cultural values etc should NEVER be used as a proxy to determine who gets rights in America and who doesn't. Our constitution/bill of rights is.
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In response to the hard hat pledge, I would off my services free of charge on the weekends to help build the place. If only I had skills to offer, unfortunately I don't have construction skills. But I could carry **** for the construction folks!
 
Johnny said:
This is liberty at work.

Those who own the property have the right to have a mosque built.

Those with the skills and know how have just as much right to not build it.
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It sounds like anti-liberty to me.
 
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