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Thread: The 911 Hard Hat Pledge

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    Re: The 911 Hard Hat Pledge

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    The 911 Hard Hat Pledge


    Sounds perfectly reasonable to me, in addition to the various proposals for gay bars and bacon street vending at the mosque, lets have some old fashioned picket lines, too.
    Sounds like more fear and ignorance.

    And sounds like you don't know how things work in NYC. They won't have a problem finding workers.

    And security to watch the job site.

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    Re: The 911 Hard Hat Pledge

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    lol this guy says that the U.S. has more blood on its hands than Al Qaeda, that the U.S. was an accessory to 9-11, that OBL was made in the USA, refuses to condemn Hamas as a terrorist organization, and advocates Sharia law.
    Whereas I've just given you a quote where he directly calls for a pluralistic, tolerant society, and evidence that he condemnes the 9/11 bombers.

    With regards to the claims themselves, the first is undeniably true, the second and third are dubious but just about passable depending on the context, the fourth is understandable and the fifth is so widely interpretable that without further context it's irrlevant.

    I'm sure you can cite all of these, of course?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris
    Will they be offering religious services to other members of the community? Non-Muslims will be allowed in so that they may receive Dawa the same as any other Mosque.
    Why does this make something 'not a mosque'? It's an Islamic community centre - in other words, it's biased. That doesn't stop it being a community centre, though - it doesn't prevent non-Muslims from benefitting from the rest of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jallman
    So wait...the prayer space is nearly 4 times that of the auditorium and you don't see how some people might view the function of the building to be more mosque oriented than community center oriented?
    That's not a reason to call it a mosque, though. It has far more purposes than Islam-related ones.
    The truth may be out there, but lies are in your head. ~Terry Pratchett

  3. #173
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    Re: The 911 Hard Hat Pledge

    Quote Originally Posted by Travelsonic View Post
    [citation needed]
    Glossary of Names and Terms
    Glossary of Islamic Terms

    What proof do you have?
    Ground Zero, if you ask the common person, is a SPECIFIC spot on or next to which this project is not.
    Excuse me? Are you suggesting that if asked a person wouldn't consider a building struck by the landing gear of one of the planes to be ground zero? By any reasonable definition of the term that's ground zero, ground zero is not just the exact two craters where the towers stood it includes significant amount of property surrounding it as well.


    Ever think that debris... travels? Debris was found a great distance from the respective crash sites, yet that doesn't magically make that place the crash site itself.
    It's a total of two blocks away from the remnants of the towers, it's ground zero.


    If they are really dedicated, they will find a way to get what they need.
    So basically, you have no proof at all?
    We, likewise have the numerous whacked out statements of the Imam, this guy says that the U.S. has more blood on its hands than Al Qaeda, that the U.S. was an accessory to 9-11, that OBL was made in the USA, refuses to condemn Hamas as a terrorist organization, and advocates Sharia law.

    Can we stick to analogies and questions relevant to AMERICA since this is going on in AMERICA and not thousands of miles away in a different country with different values?
    No I will not stick to America, if you support building this Mosque at Ground Zero then you must support building an Orthodox Cathedral at Srebrenica. Or do you only support freedom of religion and property rights when it suits you?


    A country thousands of miles away with different cultural values etc should NEVER be used as a proxy to determine who gets rights in America and who doesn't. Our constitution/bill of rights is.
    lol oh I see only Americans should be expected to abide by religious freedom and property rights, not other countries, they get a free pass.

    Fine would you support building an Army Memorial at Wounded Knee?

  4. #174
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    Re: The 911 Hard Hat Pledge

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    Actually, Ground Zero itself is a subjective designation. The site of the old WTC is a 16 acre area with specific boundaries but the term Ground Zero isn't restricted by objective boundaries. Two blocks is not far enough away to reasonably state that it isn't the ground zero area. Two blocks from what, exactly?
    I don't disagree with you inherently, but the city has designated what is ground zero and it's the 16 acre area where the WTC complex used to be. Where ground zero is located is also completely irrelvant IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    No it doesn't, will they be offering religious services for other members of the community? This is a community center like Evangelical Mega-Churches with similar facilities are community centers IE they're not.
    Well, except for the whole community center part of it that's open to anyone, sure.


    English not your first language? This building is ground zero,
    Says who?

    it was struck by a huge piece of landing gear from one of the planes that struck the towers. That's ground zero by any reasonable definition of ground zero.
    Oh I see. So wherever any dust from the WTC landed is "ground zero"?

    The fact of the matter is, it doesn't ****ing matter if it was right the **** next to the WTC memorial. Doesn't. Matter. I couldn't care less where the **** it is, pretty much how I feel about any building where they worship mythological beings of their choosing. If they have the permits and are doing it legal, why the **** does it matter?

    Answer: It doesn't.

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    Re: The 911 Hard Hat Pledge

    Meanwhile, as the USA builds billion-dollar fortresses in Iraq and Afghanistan - the latest Muslim countries to be blown to pieces by its military or Israel's - ordinary rightwing Americans worry about a mosque.

    (Has anyone outside of the teabagging community actually called it a "victory mosque?")

    we love the material idols on TV and never question the division of labor that ruins our daily lives

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    Re: The 911 Hard Hat Pledge

    Quote Originally Posted by iangb View Post
    Whereas I've just given you a quote where he directly calls for a pluralistic, tolerant society, and evidence that he condemnes the 9/11 bombers.
    And yet compares the United States unfavorably to the 9-11 bombers, and yet calls for a Sharia compliant United States.

    With regards to the claims themselves, the first is undeniably true,
    The U.S. has more innocent Muslim blood on its hands than Al Qaeda has innocent non-Muslim blood on its hands?

    And before you say he didn't say "innocent Muslim blood," he said "Muslim Blood," it is implied through the comparison with "innocent non-Muslim blood," unless you are suggesting killing guilty Muslims is akin to killing innocent non-Muslims.

    the second and third are dubious but just about passable depending on the context,
    They aren't passable they're false terrorist apologetics.

    the fourth is understandable
    You understand how someone can not label Hamas a terrorist organization?

    and the fifth is so widely interpretable that without further context it's irrlevant.
    He says that secular laws should not contradict the Koran or the Hadiths.

    I'm sure you can cite all of these, of course?
    I believe you have already requested me to provide these sources at least twice, but I'll do it one more time and this will be the last:



    Bradley: Are you in any way suggesting that we in the United States deserved what happened?

    Faisal: I wouldn't say that the United States deserved what happened, but united states policies were an accessory to the crime that happened.

    Bradley: You say that we're an accessory? How?

    Faisal: Because we have been accessory to a lot of innocent lives dying in the world. In fact, in the most direct sense, Osama bin Laden is made in the USA.

    Prominent American Muslims denounce terror committed in the name of Islam
    According to the State Department's assessment, "Hamas terrorists, especially those in the Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades, have conducted many attacks, including large-scale suicide bombings, against Israeli civilian and military targets."

    Asked if he agreed with the State Department's assessment, Imam Faisal Abdul Rauf told WABC radio, "Look, I'm not a politician.

    "The issue of terrorism is a very complex question," he told interviewer Aaron Klein.

    "There was an attempt in the '90s to have the UN define what terrorism is and say who was a terrorist. There was no ability to get agreement on that."

    Asked again for his opinion on Hamas, an exasperated Rauf wouldn't budge.

    "I am a peace builder. I will not allow anybody to put me in a position where I am seen by any party in the world as an adversary or as an enemy," Rauf said, insisting that he wants to see peace in Israel between Jews and Arabs.

    Rauf also would not answer a question about Egypt's outlawed Muslim Brotherhood.

    "I have nothing to do with the Muslim Brotherhood. My father was never a member of the Muslim Brotherhood," he said, disputing a rumor.

    Muslim Imam leading push to build a mosque near Ground Zero wavers on questions about Hamas as a terror group - NYPOST.com
    At the core of Shariah law are God's commandments, revealed in the Old Testament and revised in the New Testament and the Quran. The principles behind American secular law are similar to Shariah law - that we protect life, liberty and property, that we provide for the common welfare, that we maintain a certain amount of modesty. What Muslims want is to ensure that their secular laws are not in conflict with the Quran or the Hadith, the sayings of Muhammad.

    On Faith Panelists Blog: How Islamic Law Can Work - Feisal Abdul Rauf
    Why does this make something 'not a mosque'? It's an Islamic community centre - in other words, it's biased. That doesn't stop it being a community centre, though - it doesn't prevent non-Muslims from benefitting from the rest of it.
    Words mean things:

    Mosque - any place of Muslim worship. A jami-masjid or Friday Mosque is a major mosque where weekly prayer services are performed and a sermon or khutbah is given.

    It's a Mosque.

    That's not a reason to call it a mosque, though. It has far more purposes than Islam-related ones.
    So do Evangelical Mega-Churches.
    Last edited by Agent Ferris; 08-23-10 at 09:23 PM.

  7. #177
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    Re: The 911 Hard Hat Pledge

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    And yet compares the United States unfavorably to the 9-11 bombers, and yet calls for a Sharia compliant United States.
    To be dealt with below

    The U.S. has more innocent Muslim blood on its hands than Al Qaeda has innocent non-Muslim blood on its hands?

    And before you say he didn't say "innocent Muslim blood," he said "Muslim Blood," it is implied through the comparison with "innocent non-Muslim blood," unless you are suggesting killing guilty Muslims is akin to killing innocent non-Muslims.
    Yup.

    9/11 killed 2995 people, including the terrorists themselves. The US-led war in Afghanistan has directly killed at least 5,791 Afghan civilians, if not more.

    They aren't passable they're false terrorist apologetics.
    No, they are passable. The quote you have from him is more or less what I'd say, in fact - the US is not to blame for being attacked, but it certainly set itself up as a target.

    You understand how someone can not label Hamas a terrorist organization?
    Certainly - if you want to make peace between two sides, you don't get very far by publically denouncing one side as 'terrorists'.

    He says that secular laws should not contradict the Koran or the Hadiths.
    The part of the interview you missed out: "Where there is a conflict, it is not with Shariah law itself but more often with the way the penal code is sometimes applied. Some aspects of this penal code and its laws pertaining to women flow out of the cultural context. The religious imperative is about justice and fairness. If you strive for justice and fairness in the penal code, then you are in keeping with moral imperative of the Shariah."

    I believe you have already requested me to provide these sources at least twice, but I'll do it one more time and this will be the last:
    This is the first time I've seen them, to my memory. Thanks.

    Words mean things:

    Mosque - any place of Muslim worship. A jami-masjid or Friday Mosque is a major mosque where weekly prayer services are performed and a sermon or khutbah is given.

    It's a Mosque.
    Then the classroom where the Muslim girls at my school go to pray is also a mosque. I believe RS also gets taught there - hurray for tolerant mosques!

    So do Evangelical Mega-Churches.
    I haven't come across them befgore, so I can't comment.
    The truth may be out there, but lies are in your head. ~Terry Pratchett

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    Re: The 911 Hard Hat Pledge

    I'm still waiting to see proof of this mass of unions refusing to participate in this. I see a couple guys on the page who say they wont help, but no one who can speak for their respective unions.

    Un-shockingly enough, comments are moderated such that any dissenting viewpoint, regardless of the tone, is not posted. If their cause is so "righteous" why do they need to censor comments?
    I'm Done

    See my last post

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    Re: The 911 Hard Hat Pledge

    Double Post
    I'm Done

    See my last post

  10. #180
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    Re: The 911 Hard Hat Pledge

    Quote Originally Posted by iangb View Post
    To be dealt with below

    Yup.

    9/11 killed 2995 people, including the terrorists themselves. The US-led war in Afghanistan has directly killed at least 5,791 Afghan civilians, if not more.
    And that blood is not on our hands sport, it's on the hands of those who started the war IE AQ and the Taliban who after they started the war decided to violate all laws and customs of war by not wearing uniforms, hiding amongst civilians, and intentionally targeting civilians.


    No, they are passable. The quote you have from him is more or less what I'd say, in fact - the US is not to blame for being attacked, but it certainly set itself up as a target.
    No they are not passable he clearly said that the U.S. was an accessory to 9-11 and that OBL was made in the USA, he placed blame on the US for 9-11.

    Certainly - if you want to make peace between two sides, you don't get very far by publically denouncing one side as 'terrorists'.
    lol the entire EU, the US, Canada and Australia designate Hamas as a terrorist organization, I guess we're all against peace except for the Islamist deuce Imam Rauf.

    The part of the interview you missed out: "Where there is a conflict, it is not with Shariah law itself but more often with the way the penal code is sometimes applied. Some aspects of this penal code and its laws pertaining to women flow out of the cultural context. The religious imperative is about justice and fairness. If you strive for justice and fairness in the penal code, then you are in keeping with moral imperative of the Shariah."

    This is the first time I've seen them, to my memory. Thanks.
    I've already said several times that he opposes the penal code, that is not the point, implementation of Sharia even with a more lax penal code would still criminalize apostasy, homosexuality, adultery, premarital sex, and would implement numerous religious and gender based laws of discrimination. All he is opposed to is the strict sentences that are handed down not with the laws themselves.

    Then the classroom where the Muslim girls at my school go to pray is also a mosque. I believe RS also gets taught there - hurray for tolerant mosques!
    They hold actual Muslim services there? Or rather set aside a room for non-denominational private prayer?

    I haven't come across them befgore, so I can't comment.
    You've never heard of the Mega Churches?

    Here's an article on one of them:


    Thoughts on the Mega-Church Vs. The Small Church


    Whatever questions I may have been wrestling with, one thing was certain: Briarwood Baptist Church was amazing to behold, a place that would have astounded the ladies from Salt Street Baptist had they ever ventured inside. One of the new breed of mega-churches, it sat on 125 acres of prime real estate, with a sanctuary that could hold nearly 10,000 of its 35,000 members at one time and was often mistaken for the Park Street Mall a mile further down the road. It had theater-seating and huge video screens and often hosted concerts by popular Christian singers. There was a smaller "chapel" which seated only a thousand people; it was reserved for weddings and more intimate gatherings.

    But what still amazed me was what had been added to the campus over the past few years. As I walked through the main entrance, I faced a library and a bookstore; to my right was a fully staffed cafeteria. To the left was the food court, consisting of two fast-food chain restaurants and a coffee bar, flanked by a two-screen movie theater. A plethora of meeting rooms branched off the hallway that circled the entire building. An adjacent building held a ten-lane bowling alley, gym, and an Olympic-sized pool; beyond that building were softball and soccer fields, and an impressive football stadium. The older deacons had drawn the line at putting a dome on the stadium: too flashy, they said.

    Thoughts on the Mega-Church Vs. The Small Church - Associated Content - associatedcontent.com
    These things are not community centers, they are the new churches and mosques for the die hard religious nuts, though they open their facilities to non-evangelicals and non-muslims they only do so in order to proselytize in the case of the Evangelicals and to issue Dawa in the case of Muslims.

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