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Thread: The 911 Hard Hat Pledge

  1. #101
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    Re: The 911 Hard Hat Pledge

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoplite View Post
    So ****ing what? Runways around the world were touched by the landing gear of the planes, are THEY Ground Zero now?
    They were launched from the wreckage and planted themselves in the building. The building is a part of Ground Zero in the strictest sense.

    Do you even know what "Islamist" even means? WITHOUT looking it up?
    Political Islam, this man supports a Sharia compliant U.S. in which secular laws do not contradict the Koran or the Hadiths. He is an overt Islamist.

    You have Muslims who want to build a mosque and community center, why is this such shocking news?
    No we have an Islamist who said that the U.S. was an accessory to 9-11 and that OBL was made in the USA less than 3 weeks after 9-11, who refuses to condemn Hamas as a terrorist organization, who wants to have a sharia compliant US, and who is now building a Mega-Mosque at Ground Zero.

    I mean nothing odd going on here huh?

    Would you support building an Orthodox Cathedral in the town of Srebrenica?

  2. #102
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    Re: The 911 Hard Hat Pledge

    Quote Originally Posted by iangb View Post
    No, the definition of an Islamist you've been using is one who sees "every dead American as a victory".
    No radical Islamists believe that not every Islamist.

    I have no issue with people who simply want Sharia Law - I disagree with them, but that's no reason to take issue with them personally; after all, I disagree with a lot of people online all the time, a lot of whom I respect even while I'm disagree with them.
    You don't take issue with people suggesting that implementing theocratic governance would be a good thing? It's not a simple matter of disagreement here. It's secularism and liberty on the one hand and theocracy and tyranny on the other.

    I do have an issue with anyone who considers violence as a method of spreading their viewpoint, whatever that may be - be it Sharia Law or Veganism. But I have seen no evidence that this Iman meets that standard.
    Neither have I, he supports implementing theocracy graudually through non-violent means.


    But more importantly, it's a community centre. It's not 'Iman Steve's Sharia-Spreading Shack', or 'Iman Tims Terrorist Training Terraces' (I can't remember his name off-hand, so I turned to alliteration again).
    It's not a ****ing community center, when will they be offering religious services for non-Muslim members of the community? In fact he has stated that one of the main purposes of this Mosque is to issue Dawa to non-Muslims.

    Even not giving it silly names, it's not 'Iman X's mosque', for his personal use only, representing to the greater world nothing more than what he wishes (even if his stated wishes so far have been no more threatening that "to encourage peace between nations and religions").

    The only people calling it a 'victory mosque' are those who oppose it. You're falling foul of your own propoganda, nothing more.
    Ya as if you can't protest the building of a Pat Robertson mega-church without protesting all Christianity or even all Christians who might attend that church.

  3. #103
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    Re: The 911 Hard Hat Pledge

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    They were launched from the wreckage and planted themselves in the building. The building is a part of Ground Zero in the strictest sense.
    So, by that logic, every building hit by debris is defacto "ground zero"?

    Ok, so what about a building in Lower Manhattan that WASN'T hit by debris? Is THAT still ground zero? And does that mean that ANY building hit by ANY debris is sacred? Or is it JUST certain kinds of debris?

    Do you see how stupid this is?

    Political Islam, this man supports a Sharia compliant U.S. in which secular laws do not contradict the Koran or the Hadiths. He is an overt Islamist.
    Islamism is simply the belief that Islam is more than just a religious system and that it can also be a political system.There is very little agreement of what it ACTUALLY means, even among the Muslim community.

    No we have an Islamist who said that the U.S. was an accessory to 9-11 and that OBL was made in the USA less than 3 weeks after 9-11, who refuses to condemn Hamas as a terrorist organization, who wants to have a sharia compliant US, and who is now building a Mega-Mosque at Ground Zero.
    So what? It's not his job to condemn everyone to satisfy you.

    Would you support building an Orthodox Cathedral in the town of Srebrenica?
    This is a very dumb comparison on several fronts.

    1. Srebrenica is in Bosnia & Herzogovina, not the US.
    2. The Srebrenica Massacre was carried out by the VRS, not a terrorist group.
    I'm Done

    See my last post

  4. #104
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    Re: The 911 Hard Hat Pledge

    What's going to happen is... the community centre is going to get built, morons who think they are fighting the eeebil eebil islam are going to try trashing the place, and NYC is going to have to post police forces there to enforce the centre's right to exist.

    This is what you conservative radicals aren't getting. They have the freedom to do it and they're going to do it. You have no right to stop them, and your petty racist anecdotes about how all Muslims consent to terrorism is just going to turn the public against you.

    Please keep running your mouth. Eventually someone will stomp their foot in it.

  5. #105
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    Re: The 911 Hard Hat Pledge

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    No radical Islamists believe that not every Islamist.
    So you agree that the Imam isn't even a 'Radical Islamist' than?

    You don't take issue with people suggesting that implementing theocratic governance would be a good thing? It's not a simple matter of disagreement here. It's secularism and liberty on the one hand and theocracy and tyranny on the other.
    I argue against them, but I don't try and silence them. I'm suprosed no-ones mis-quoted Voltaire yet - "I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it".

    Neither have I, he supports implementing theocracy graudually through non-violent means.
    Good for him! He'll fail, no-one will die, kittens and candy will fall from the sky, etc...

    I have no problem with people saying something, no matter what they want to say. If it incites violence, get rid of it quick, but if it doesn't? I'm secure enough in my own arguments not to be overly worried.

    It's not a ****ing community center, when will they be offering religious services for non-Muslim members of the community? In fact he has stated that one of the main purposes of this Mosque is to issue Dawa to non-Muslims.
    Park 51 originally named Cordoba House and sometimes controversially[5] referred to as the "Ground Zero mosque", is a planned $100 million, 13-story, glass and steel Islamic community center and mosque.[6]

    I'm not a Christian, but I go to church with my familly at Christmas and have a fairly good time - and the church is just a church.

    Ya as if you can't protest the building of a Pat Robertson mega-church without protesting all Christianity or even all Christians who might attend that church.
    Do you regularly argue against Pat Robertson churches, as well?

    I wouldn't.
    The truth may be out there, but lies are in your head. ~Terry Pratchett

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    Re: The 911 Hard Hat Pledge

    Quote Originally Posted by iangb View Post
    So you agree that the Imam isn't even a 'Radical Islamist' than?
    I have seen nothing that would lead me to believe he supports violence to obtain his goal, however, as an Islamist he is still part of the problem, the solution to radical Islamism is not more Islamism it's secularism.

    I argue against them, but I don't try and silence them. I'm suprosed no-ones mis-quoted Voltaire yet - "I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it".
    I have continuously said that he has the right to build his Mosque but that does not supersede my right to protest against it nor my right to encourage others not to enter into voluntary contracts to trade their labour for capital in order to build it.

    Good for him! He'll fail, no-one will die, kittens and candy will fall from the sky, etc...

    I have no problem with people saying something, no matter what they want to say. If it incites violence, get rid of it quick, but if it doesn't? I'm secure enough in my own arguments not to be overly worried.
    The Islamist ideology directly leads to Islamist terrorism. Without the former we would not have the latter.

    Park 51 originally named Cordoba House and sometimes controversially[5] referred to as the "Ground Zero mosque", is a planned $100 million, 13-story, glass and steel Islamic community center and mosque.[6]
    "...Islamic community center...", if it was just a community center and not a Mosque when will they be offering religious services to non-Muslim members of the community?

    I'm not a Christian, but I go to church with my familly at Christmas and have a fairly good time - and the church is just a church.

    Do you regularly argue against Pat Robertson churches, as well?
    I regularly argue against pretty much anything Pat Robertson says or does.

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    Re: The 911 Hard Hat Pledge

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    I have seen nothing that would lead me to believe he supports violence to obtain his goal, however, as an Islamist he is still part of the problem, the solution to radical Islamism is not more Islamism it's secularism.
    There is no proof that the Imam is a radical Islamist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    "...Islamic community center...", if it was just a community center and not a Mosque when will they be offering religious services to non-Muslim members of the community?
    If it's just a community centre and not a church, then when will the Young Men's Christian Association offer religious services to non-Christian members?

    See how that works?

    You are grasping at straws here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    I regularly argue against pretty much anything Pat Robertson says or does.
    Yet the things you say against the community centre in NYC mirror the things he says almost to a tee.

    You really are a tiresome debater Agent Ferris. Like so many others, you take statements, act like they are facts, and then extrapolate these complicated arguments based on a false premise. Learn to separate religion from politics, and maybe people will take you seriously.

    Even if this community centre were about to become the epicentre of a victory celibration, or a hot bed for terrorism, I'm sure the FBI and CIA are already all over it. Your offense at imaginary evils is irrelevant to their right to build it. In fact, I think if people start attacking this community centre or vandalizing it, it will only make them look like the very vigilantes they believe they are trying to stop.

  8. #108
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    Re: The 911 Hard Hat Pledge

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    I have seen nothing that would lead me to believe he supports violence to obtain his goal, however, as an Islamist he is still part of the problem, the solution to radical Islamism is not more Islamism it's secularism.
    Who is a radical Islamist more likely to listen to on matters of faith - a moderate Islamist or a secular atheist?

    Evolution > Revolution

    I have continuously said that he has the right to build his Mosque but that does not supersede my right to protest against it nor my right to encourage others not to enter into voluntary contracts to trade their labour for capital in order to build it.
    You tread a fine line. It's not unconstitutional for you to campaign against it, but it would certainly be dishonest for you to campaign for banning it.

    The Islamist ideology directly leads to Islamist terrorism. Without the former we would not have the latter.
    Exactly the same could be said about Christianity.

    "...Islamic community center...", if it was just a community center and not a Mosque when will they be offering religious services to non-Muslim members of the community?
    I never said it was "just a community center and not a Mosque" - I said it was a community centre; I assumed you knew that it was also a mosque.
    It's both.
    The truth may be out there, but lies are in your head. ~Terry Pratchett

  9. #109
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    Re: The 911 Hard Hat Pledge

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoplite View Post
    So, by that logic, every building hit by debris is defacto "ground zero"?
    It wasn't simply hit by small chunks of debris it was actually hit by a large piece of the actual plane that hit the building.

    Ok, so what about a building in Lower Manhattan that WASN'T hit by debris? Is THAT still ground zero? And does that mean that ANY building hit by ANY debris is sacred? Or is it JUST certain kinds of debris?

    Do you see how stupid this is?
    It wasn't hit by simple falling rubble it was hit by actual landing gear from one of the planes.

    Islamism is simply the belief that Islam is more than just a religious system and that it can also be a political system.There is very little agreement of what it ACTUALLY means, even among the Muslim community.
    Islamism is political Islam, by supporting Sharia law he is an Islamist rather than a secular Muslim.

    So what? It's not his job to condemn everyone to satisfy you.
    lol, if you repeatedly refuse to condemn Hamas as a terrorist organization then you are either ignorant or have a pro-Jihadist agenda.

    This is a very dumb comparison on several fronts.

    1. Srebrenica is in Bosnia & Herzogovina, not the US.
    What does geography have to do with it?

    2. The Srebrenica Massacre was carried out by the VRS, not a terrorist group.
    What does the typology of organization which committed the massacre have to do with anything?

    Would you support an Orthodox Church built in the town of Srebrenica? If not then why not?

  10. #110
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    Re: The 911 Hard Hat Pledge

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    There is no proof that the Imam is a radical Islamist.
    He is certainly an Islamist albeit one who doesn't support violence to achieve his goals, but the goals are the same. It's a difference of degree not of kind.

    If it's just a community centre and not a church, then when will the Young Men's Christian Association offer religious services to non-Christian members?

    See how that works?
    I wasn't aware that the YMCA offered religious services. What type of mass does the YMCA hold?

    You are grasping at straws here.
    No that would be you. This is not a community center it is a Mosque, it will be offering religious services for Muslims but not for non-Muslim members of the community, it's a Mosque.

    [quote]

    Yet the things you say against the community centre in NYC mirror the things he says almost to a tee.
    I wasn't aware that Pat Robertson was a large advocate against theocratic theocracy in general.

    You really are a tiresome debater Agent Ferris. Like so many others, you take statements, act like they are facts, and then extrapolate these complicated arguments based on a false premise.
    Every statement I have made is a fact or a logical conclusion based on the facts.

    Learn to separate religion from politics, and maybe people will take you seriously.
    lol, this man supports Sharia law he does not separate the political from the religious, as an Islamist for him they are one in the same.

    Even if this community centre were about to become the epicentre of a victory celibration, or a hot bed for terrorism, I'm sure the FBI and CIA are already all over it. Your offense at imaginary evils is irrelevant to their right to build it.
    They have a right to build it, I have the right to protest it and encourage others not to enter into voluntary contracts with the Mosque propenents to trade their labour for their capital. They have the right to build it, they do not have the right to silence the opposition or compel others against their will to build it.

    so that In fact, I think if people start attacking this community centre or vandalizing it, it will only make them look like the very vigilantes they believe they are trying to stop.
    It's not a ****ing community center it's a Mosque, if it was a community center when will they be offering religious services to non-Muslim members of the community?

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