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GOP plan to extend tax cuts for rich adds $36 billion

Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

LOL, the country needs the money? Needs the money to do what? Where is the proof that the expiration of the tax cuts on the rich will generate another 36 billion to the govt?

You're either a patriot that wants to help your country during trying times, or you're not. It's as simple as that.

ricksfolly
 
Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

You're either a patriot that wants to help your country during trying times, or you're not. It's as simple as that.

ricksfolly

How much help is this Administration doing putting 16 million Americans back to work? Stop buying the BS and answer the question, what guarantee do you have that 36 billion dollars will go to the govt. by letting the Bush tax cuts expire?

If you want to talk patriotism why don't you talk to the 47% of the workers who don't pay any Federal Income taxes? You instead want to go after the top 2% that pay the most. That says a lot about you and anyone else that supports this folly.
 
Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

You're either a patriot that wants to help your country during trying times, or you're not. It's as simple as that.

ricksfolly

Rick, do you think it is patriotic to run up trillions in debt which runs the risk of destroying the value of our dollar?

Tell me, Rick, when you get to keep more of your money what do you do with it and does that have any affect on the economy? If the govt. raises your taxes what does that do to the amount you take home each pay period and how does that affect your behavior?

Do you think personal spending has any affect on the economy?
 
Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

Nothing in that post addresses the topic of this thread and is directly focused on attacking me. Post the definition of a personal attack again. Every one of your statements has been addressed and your entire argument ignores human behavior and the affects of tax cuts on that behavior.

You went off topic a few pages ago, calling you on it is certainly within the rules here @ DP. Calling you out for not being able to hold your ground without ad homs is really just me asking you to address my comments without speculating about me as a person. You are welcome to report the post if you truly believe I am breaking any rules.

We have a an economy based upon free enterprise, capitalism and individual wealth creation which apparently is one that you don't understand or haven't learned in your textbooks.

Can you specifically locate the post(s) that exemplify your statement? If not, you are making false accusations. I am quite familiar with market systems as i am an entrepreneur.

There is a lot to be gained by reading books however it really is a shame that people like you ignore real people and their personal behavior in making your arguments.

What specifically have i ignored? Ive made reference to tax cuts being a type of stimulus, along with the basic mechanics behind it. You completely ignored my comment by stating "liberals always want to overcomplicate things". Do you honestly believe that is a competent (let alone serious) response?

Tell me how letting the tax cuts expire on the rich will affect their behavior especially since many of those so called rich are small business owners?

Well it depends on many other variables. What is the net liquid wealth of these taxpayers? What is their debt ratio to yearly income? How old are they? Do they have children? What is the state of interest rates (an inflationary forecast) etc.... You cannot make an arbitrary statement without considering the spectrum. Given this dilemma, we are then forced to rely on aggregates to form somewhat of a model. What we do know is that those with high incomes tend to have more extravagant lifestyles (along with more liquidity e.g. savings). Another component is whether this particular demographic views the tax increase as permanent. If they do, then spending will decrease somewhat proportional to the increase in savings. If they think it is temporary, people will simply save less and maintain their current levels of consumption.

Tell me again what people do when they get more take home pay including the rich?

Again, that depends. What are their respective debt levels? Do they have children? How old are they? Again, we are then forced to resort to aggregates. A highly indebted society such as the US will pay down debt, which lowers growth (leads to recession). If a rather large segment of the working class begins to pay down debt, output will surely suffer in the short run (they are buying less and repaying more). If the extent of the tax cut is used to pay down debt, little if any demand will be stimulated. Are you willing to agree that the US consumer is heavily indebted?

See if you can find that in your textbooks?

Why are you so interested in me, that you are willing to speculate as to where my response comes from? Shouldn't you instead be focusing on the content of my statements, and not what you perceive ME as? Again, i am not here to debate you on a personal level.

What guarantee do you have that letting the tax cuts expire for the "rich" will generate 36 billion more dollars to the Treasury and more importantly if it does happen that it will be used to pay down the deficits?

Tax revenue = tax rate/taxable income. You increase the numerator, and revenue increases (all other things held constant). You might have a point if you can identify (and here lies the need for intellectualism) reasons for the denominator to decrease due to an increase in the denominator. The problem is, you will then need to rely on theory (complicating things) to formulate your hypothesis.:2razz:
 
Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

Apparently the fact that tax revenues grew AFTER both the Reagan and Bush tax cuts isn't something you understand nor can you explain. How can tax rates be cut 10-10-5% over three years and Federal Income tax revenue grow?

Inflation!!!!! You know, that complicated stuff that street dumb book smart people bring up. Secondly, the tax revenues during the initial tax cuts were severely impacted by the recession. As recovery progressed, tax rates will naturally increase. Lastly, Reagan implemented a spending increase that was unprecedented at the time. Military Keynesiansim was successful in increasing aggregate demand. Synthesize all three concepts to formulate the reasons behind revenue growth. It should be noted that inflation was a major aspect of revenue increases.
 
Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

You went off topic a few pages ago, calling you on it is certainly within the rules here @ DP. Calling you out for not being able to hold your ground without ad homs is really just me asking you to address my comments without speculating about me as a person. You are welcome to report the post if you truly believe I am breaking any rules.



Can you specifically locate the post(s) that exemplify your statement? If not, you are making false accusations. I am quite familiar with market systems as i am an entrepreneur.



What specifically have i ignored? Ive made reference to tax cuts being a type of stimulus, along with the basic mechanics behind it. You completely ignored my comment by stating "liberals always want to overcomplicate things". Do you honestly believe that is a competent (let alone serious) response?



Well it depends on many other variables. What is the net liquid wealth of these taxpayers? What is their debt ratio to yearly income? How old are they? Do they have children? What is the state of interest rates (an inflationary forecast) etc.... You cannot make an arbitrary statement without considering the spectrum. Given this dilemma, we are then forced to rely on aggregates to form somewhat of a model. What we do know is that those with high incomes tend to have more extravagant lifestyles (along with more liquidity e.g. savings). Another component is whether this particular demographic views the tax increase as permanent. If they do, then spending will decrease somewhat proportional to the increase in savings. If they think it is temporary, people will simply save less and maintain their current levels of consumption.



Again, that depends. What are their respective debt levels? Do they have children? How old are they? Again, we are then forced to resort to aggregates. A highly indebted society such as the US will pay down debt, which lowers growth (leads to recession). If a rather large segment of the working class begins to pay down debt, output will surely suffer in the short run (they are buying less and repaying more). If the extent of the tax cut is used to pay down debt, little if any demand will be stimulated. Are you willing to agree that the US consumer is heavily indebted?



Why are you so interested in me, that you are willing to speculate as to where my response comes from? Shouldn't you instead be focusing on the content of my statements, and not what you perceive ME as? Again, i am not here to debate you on a personal level.



Tax revenue = tax rate/taxable income. You increase the numerator, and revenue increases (all other things held constant). You might have a point if you can identify (and here lies the need for intellectualism) reasons for the denominator to decrease due to an increase in the denominator. The problem is, you will then need to rely on theory (complicating things) to formulate your hypothesis.:2razz:
:shock::allhail conservative fails to take into account all these other factors, it would be great if a tax cut would automatically spur the economy, as conservative suggests...
 
Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

Rick, do you think it is patriotic to run up trillions in debt which runs the risk of destroying the value of our dollar?

What Killed Off The GOP Deficit Hawks?


DECEMBER 27, 2004
HOW DID THIS SHIFT HAPPEN?



Conversations with more than a dozen senior business leaders, including board members of the Concord Coalition, point to this progression: Since Ronald Reagan, a majority of Republican politicians have gradually come to conclude, as Vice-President Dick Cheney famously told former Treasury Secretary Paul H. O'Neill, that "deficits don't matter." What's interesting and alarming, however, is that different Republican factions believe deficits don't matter for opposite and incompatible reasons.


Supply-siders believe deficits don't matter because tax cuts so boost investment and productivity that the economy grows its way out of debt. The opposite, "starve the beast" faction, epitomized by tax tactician Grover Norquist, hope tax cuts will indeed create deep deficits that will then force spending cuts. But both things can't be true.

Under George W. Bush, the merry ideology calls for tax cuts in all seasons for all reasons. Spending has increased faster than under Clinton, and deficits have ballooned, yet tax cutting marches on. This privately scares many Republican business leaders. But very few are speaking out, either because they don't want to burn bridges to the White House or because they are too pleased with their tax cuts.
 
Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

Inflation!!!!! You know, that complicated stuff that street dumb book smart people bring up. Secondly, the tax revenues during the initial tax cuts were severely impacted by the recession. As recovery progressed, tax rates will naturally increase. Lastly, Reagan implemented a spending increase that was unprecedented at the time. Military Keynesiansim was successful in increasing aggregate demand. Synthesize all three concepts to formulate the reasons behind revenue growth. It should be noted that inflation was a major aspect of revenue increases.

Still waiting for a response to the questions, where is the guarantee that expiration of the Bush tax cuts on the rich will generate 36 billion in tax revenue to the Treasury? that is the thread topic.
 
Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!


Spending increases had nothing to do with the tax cuts nor did the deficits. Spending causes debt not tax cuts. I thought the thread topic was how elimination of the Bush tax cuts for the top 2% was going to generate 36 billion to the Treasury, prove it?
 
Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

:shock::allhail conservative fails to take into account all these other factors, it would be great if a tax cut would automatically spur the economy, as conservative suggests...

What affect do you have on the economy when you have more money to spend?
 
Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!


Bush isn't in office and all Obama has done is put Bush spending on steroids. Now are you going to explain where the 36 billion is going to come from when the Rich get soaked again, you know those evil rich people who actually run businesses and employ people? I cannot believe you continue to buy what you are told from this Administration, oh, wait, yes I do.
 
Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

Conservative;1058965217]How much help is this Administration doing putting 16 million Americans back to work? Stop buying the BS and answer the question, what guarantee do you have that 36 billion dollars will go to the govt. by letting the Bush tax cuts expire?

More money means more jobs, and more jobs means more people paying taxes, especially since the Reps are blocking the money from the stimulus package. Our infrastructure is crumbling and you keep protecting your rich buddies. I'm still wondering what you're gong to get out of it. There must be some kind of a pay off, otherwise why are you so dedicated?

If you want to talk patriotism why don't you talk to the 47% of the workers who don't pay any Federal Income taxes? You instead want to go after the top 2% that pay the most. That says a lot about you and anyone else that supports this folly.

I repeat, the rich can afford higher taxes. The rest of the people are still struggling to keep their houses and feed their families.

ricksfolly
 
Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

Why do they need a tax cut shouldn't be the issue in a free enterprise economy? The fact that you would ask the question says a lot about you almost as much as diverting from the question I asked you.

Where is the guarantee? What do people do when they get to keep more of what they earn? Your take home pay goes up and what do you do with the money? The rich are no different, they spend it, save it, invest it, or pay down debt all positively affecting the economy just like you and the millions of others in this country do with their personal income.

Alright, so if both sides of the economic divide do the same thing with their tax savings, explain to me why it is that much more important that the largest portion of those tax cuts must go to the wealthiest Americans rather than the largest percentage of the working population? Seems to me the combined purchasing power of 89* million people who make up the working/middle-class can have a much greater affect on improving our nation's economy - and faster mind you - than the 1.29* million people who make up the total number of Americans who make +$250K/annually.

*Numbers pulled from 2007 U.S. Census data contain under, "Money Income of People--Number by Income Level and by Sex, Race, and Hispanic Origin: 2007," which is the latest data available for this category on the U.S. Census Bureau's website (Census Bureau Home Page)
 
Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

Arbitrarily chanting supply side without even a most basic understanding discredits your entire argument. Then you go off and recreate definitions (a sign that you cannot keep up with the conversation) e.g. "the multiplier effect is the American consumer keeping more of what they earn". Of course, Keynes identified various tax break style stimulus in the 30's, but the "effectiveness" (pun intended) is dependent upon ones marginal propensity to consume domestic goods, e.g. the percentage of ones income that is spent on domestic goods/services.

If tax cuts are saved rather than spent (which coincides with the evidence), the multiplier is marginal. Given the state of interest rates, inflationary expectations, consumer deleveraging, unemployment, etc..., supply side remedies are simply unnecessary. It worked in the 1980's because of the high rate of inflation during that time.

If you have any questions regarding supply side economics, do not hesitate to ask:2wave:

why do you call yourself a libertarian?
 
Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

Alright, so if both sides of the economic divide do the same thing with their tax savings, explain to me why it is that much more important that the largest portion of those tax cuts must go to the wealthiest Americans rather than the largest percentage of the working population? Seems to me the combined purchasing power of 89* million people who make up the working/middle-class can have a much greater affect on improving our nation's economy - and faster mind you - than the 1.29* million people who make up the total number of Americans who make +$250K/annually.

*Numbers pulled from 2007 U.S. Census data contain under, "Money Income of People--Number by Income Level and by Sex, Race, and Hispanic Origin: 2007," which is the latest data available for this category on the U.S. Census Bureau's website (Census Bureau Home Page)

because that large population doesn't pay that much in taxes and the economy is driven by those in the 200K to 1Million or so in income

and those targeted for soaking already pay far too much in taxes. To stop the idiotic spending by the government we have to make those who vote in the big spenders suffer for such spending
 
Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

Conservative;1058965217]How much help is this Administration doing putting 16 million Americans back to work? Stop buying the BS and answer the question, what guarantee do you have that 36 billion dollars will go to the govt. by letting the Bush tax cuts expire?

More money means more jobs, and more jobs means more people paying taxes, especially since the Reps are blocking the money from the stimulus package. Our infrastructure is crumbling and you keep protecting your rich buddies. I'm still wondering what you're gong to get out of it. There must be some kind of a pay off, otherwise why are you so dedicated?

If you want to talk patriotism why don't you talk to the 47% of the workers who don't pay any Federal Income taxes? You instead want to go after the top 2% that pay the most. That says a lot about you and anyone else that supports this folly.

I repeat, the rich can afford higher taxes. The rest of the people are still struggling to keep their houses and feed their families.

ricksfolly

You are kidding, right? What stimulus plan?Thought that was the 862 billion plan in February 2009? How did that work out for you? You want so badly to believe what Obama tells you that you are blinded by the rhetoric. Find out why the Republicans are blocking this 26 BILLION Dollar so called jobs bill and the let us know. You are going to be shocked if you ever did the research to verify the rhetoric.

You claim that the rich can afford higher taxes yet ignore the 47% that don't pay any income taxes. You don't believe that any of that 47% can afford something in taxes? I ask you again what evidence do you have that letting the tax cuts expire for the 2% so called rich is going to generate 36 billion in revenue to the govt? Do you realize that many of those so called evil rich people are business owners that actually hire people? How does raising their taxes put people back to work?
 
Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

Conservative;1058965217]How much help is this Administration doing putting 16 million Americans back to work? Stop buying the BS and answer the question, what guarantee do you have that 36 billion dollars will go to the govt. by letting the Bush tax cuts expire?

More money means more jobs, and more jobs means more people paying taxes, especially since the Reps are blocking the money from the stimulus package. Our infrastructure is crumbling and you keep protecting your rich buddies. I'm still wondering what you're gong to get out of it. There must be some kind of a pay off, otherwise why are you so dedicated?

If you want to talk patriotism why don't you talk to the 47% of the workers who don't pay any Federal Income taxes? You instead want to go after the top 2% that pay the most. That says a lot about you and anyone else that supports this folly.

I repeat, the rich can afford higher taxes. The rest of the people are still struggling to keep their houses and feed their families.

ricksfolly

we tire of lets tax those who can afford it (whatever that means-should those targeted for soaking say pull their kids out of Harvard if the tax hikes mean that a 55K a year tuition is no longer reachable? you claim they can afford it by sending their kid to State U)

we need to tax those who vote for the irresponsible spending politicians. The top 1% aren't those who do that-we don't have enough votes. As long as people like you demand socialist spending and demand people like me pay the freight, you will never want the government to reign in the idiotic spending. We need people like you to make do with less everytime you vote for a pelosi or an Obama
 
Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

You're either a patriot that wants to help your country during trying times, or you're not. It's as simple as that.

ricksfolly

What horsepoop

those hit with the tax hikes already give too much

its time the 47% who get representation without taxation step to the plate and either pony up some bucks or stop voting for more taxes and spending
 
Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

Alright, so if both sides of the economic divide do the same thing with their tax savings, explain to me why it is that much more important that the largest portion of those tax cuts must go to the wealthiest Americans rather than the largest percentage of the working population? Seems to me the combined purchasing power of 89* million people who make up the working/middle-class can have a much greater affect on improving our nation's economy - and faster mind you - than the 1.29* million people who make up the total number of Americans who make +$250K/annually.

*Numbers pulled from 2007 U.S. Census data contain under, "Money Income of People--Number by Income Level and by Sex, Race, and Hispanic Origin: 2007," which is the latest data available for this category on the U.S. Census Bureau's website (Census Bureau Home Page)

Turtle handled that quite well, the class envy is showing. Why do you care how much someone else pays in taxes? I am still waiting for an explanation as to why you believe expiration of the tax cuts for the rich will add 36 billion to the Treasury?
 
Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

why do the rich need 36 billion more in tax cuts? i already know your whole spiel about 'keeping more of your own money' and 'class warfare' responses, so, why do they need them? what difference would a few extra dollars mean to them? and please avoid the above mentioned 'talking points' of yours....

why do the libs always talk about need as it pertains to others

a few more dollars? are you clueless

someone making a million a year is going to easily pay over 100K more in taxes if half their income is in investments.



one thing is sure-those who make the money NEED it more than greedy poltiicians who buy the votes of people such as you with promises that the government will give you what you want paid for by others

you need to pay more taxes in order to disabuse you of thinking that the government should provide you more goodies and others should pay for it
 
Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

and those targeted for soaking already pay far too much in taxes. To stop the idiotic spending by the government we have to make those who vote in the big spenders suffer for such spending
How do you figure they are being soaked, when they make so much money that their effective tax rate is around 17%?
 
Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

Conservative

All the rhetoric about how much the rich pay in taxes when the actual amount of the increase is a drop in the bucket of the deficits being created and ignores the fact that 47% of the people don't pay any Federal Income taxes. Wonder what the real agenda is here?


Federal poverty level income for 2010 is $22,050;think of a poor widow woman, just scraping by. Medicare payments on this income is $320,per month, Social security is $1367,which is about ten percent of her income, which leaves $22000 to live on, around $425 per week. When the people living at poverty go to a grocery store there is no "sales tax break" for them, they pay at the same price for grocerys of someone making a million a year.


Someone earning $200000 a year would pay $ 12400 into social security and $2900 into Medicare; their tax would be $ 64000 in. Leaving after tax income of about $120,700.About $2321 per week.


Of these two Scenarios which in your opinion can best afford to pay the taxman? The widow women, making do on $425 per week, or someone making almost six times that per week.

So sad that the wingers have taken up kicking poor widow women as part of there agenda.:(
 
Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

its time the 47% who get representation without taxation step to the plate and either pony up some bucks or stop voting for more taxes and spending
Why do you care if 47% of low-wage earners pay no taxes, are you jealous?
 
Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

I don't think liberals really want to discuss the other side of the issue as they are having a tough time with this side. Another issue is the 47% that don't pay any Federal Income taxes and the amount they use of the Federal Treasury without any shared sacrifice at all. Interesting how the focus is on the 2% while ignoring this 47%.

Then there is the tough question of how does anyone know that elimination of the tax cut for the 2% will generate another 36 billion dollars? Obama says so? LOL, well we know how accurate he has been with his economic projections.

You make a good point though. Too bad it will be ignored by Obama supporters

You must be correct. I did not see a single response from the soak the rich crowd.
 
Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

Federal poverty level income for 2010 is $22,050;think of a poor widow woman, just scraping by. Medicare payments on this income is $320,per month, Social security is $1367,which is about ten percent of her income, which leaves $22000 to live on, around $425 per week. When the people living at poverty go to a grocery store there is no "sales tax break" for them, they pay at the same price for grocerys of someone making a million a year.


Someone earning $200000 a year would pay $ 12400 into social security and $2900 into Medicare; their tax would be $ 64000 in. Leaving after tax income of about $120,700.About $2321 per week.


Of these two Scenarios which in your opinion can best afford to pay the taxman? The widow women, making do on $425 per week, or someone making almost six times that per week.

So sad that the wingers have taken up kicking poor widow women as part of there agenda.:(

We love starving kids too, what a joke you are. How many of that 47% make less than 22,000 per year? Still waiting for you to prove that 36 billion will be added to the Treasury with the expiration of the tax cuts on the rich?
 
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