GOP plan to extend tax cuts for rich adds $36 billion

Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

donc said:

Why would I be envious? It will more than like end up costing me quite a bit of money; unlike others on this board I put the financial stability of my country on a higher plane. I was coming home thru Denver and heard this song,it Kinda hit home.

Especially the part about the workingman paying the band while the rich man dances.:2wave:

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If you put the financial stability of this country in such high regards why do you support an Admnistration that is spending us into bankruptcy? If the Congress is going to spend all that money why not let the American people keep more of the source of that money so they need less of that so called Govt. help?

All the rhetoric about how much the rich pay in taxes when the actual amount of the increase is a drop in the bucket of the deficits being created and ignores the fact that 47% of the people don't pay any Federal Income taxes. Wonder what the real agenda is here?

Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

Conservative said:

That is your opinion but some things aren't black and white textbook items like you seem to believe. Some people are simply book smart and street stupid and I don't mean that to be derogatory but basic human behavior, logic, and common sense seems to be missing from far too many. The multiplier effect in this economy is the American consumer keeping more of what they earn and spending it as they see fit. Supply side works and always will and there are millions of people like me as proof.

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Arbitrarily chanting supply side without even a most basic understanding discredits your entire argument. Then you go off and recreate definitions (a sign that you cannot keep up with the conversation) e.g. "the multiplier effect is the American consumer keeping more of what they earn". Of course, Keynes identified various tax break style stimulus in the 30's, but the "effectiveness" (pun intended) is dependent upon ones marginal propensity to consume domestic goods, e.g. the percentage of ones income that is spent on domestic goods/services.

If tax cuts are saved rather than spent (which coincides with the evidence), the multiplier is marginal. Given the state of interest rates, inflationary expectations, consumer deleveraging, unemployment, etc..., supply side remedies are simply unnecessary. It worked in the 1980's because of the high rate of inflation during that time.

If you have any questions regarding supply side economics, do not hesitate to ask:2wave:

Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

Goldenboy219 said:

Arbitrarily chanting supply side without even a most basic understanding discredits your entire argument. Then you go off and recreate definitions (a sign that you cannot keep up with the conversation) e.g. "the multiplier effect is the American consumer keeping more of what they earn". Of course, Keynes identified various tax break style stimulus in the 30's, but the "effectiveness" (pun intended) is dependent upon ones marginal propensity to consume domestic goods, e.g. the percentage of ones income that is spent on domestic goods/services.

If tax cuts are saved rather than spent (which coincides with the evidence), the multiplier is marginal. Given the state of interest rates, inflationary expectations, consumer deleveraging, unemployment, etc..., supply side remedies are simply unnecessary. It worked in the 1980's because of the high rate of inflation during that time.

If you have any questions regarding supply side economics, do not hesitate to ask:2wave:

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Like all liberals you wanto to make it complicated but it isn't. All the money for the govt. comes from the taxpayers and today that is 53% of the income earners whereas 47% don't pay any income taxes. When you raise the taxes on that 53% or in this case only the top 2% the govt. first doesn't generate enough revenue to make a difference in the debt, nor a dent in the slow economic growth. Top income earners aren't stupid, they change their spending habits and that hurts the economy.

It is very simple, allow the taxpayer to keep more of their own money and they need less of that so called govt. help? By allowing people to keep their money they spend it and that increases business profits and thus higher tax revenues. That also means more jobs.

I don't have a lot of interest in your theories and book smart rhetoric. We are seeing the results today generated by book smart street stupid liberal elitists who continue to appeal to the 47% that don't pay any taxes. Whether or not taxpayers spend, save, invest, or pay off debt that increases the private economy and individual wealth which promotes the principles upon which this economy was built.

Unless you focus on the role of the govt. then nothing else matters. Appealing to special interest groups i.e. unions and the non income taxpayers you divide the country and do nothing to promote individual wealth creation.

Have you ever created a job? What is your experience at growing the economy? All your textbook rhetoric doesn't equate to the real world and the bottom line remains, people keeping more of what they earn means less of a "need" for all that govt. help.

Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

Conservative said:

Like all liberals you wanto to make it complicated but it isn't. All the money for the govt. comes from the taxpayers and today that is 53% of the income earners whereas 47% don't pay any income taxes. When you raise the taxes on that 53% or in this case only the top 2% the govt. first doesn't generate enough revenue to make a difference in the debt, nor a dent in the slow economic growth. Top income earners aren't stupid, they change their spending habits and that hurts the economy.

It is very simple, allow the taxpayer to keep more of their own money and they need less of that so called govt. help? By allowing people to keep their money they spend it and that increases business profits and thus higher tax revenues. That also means more jobs.

I don't have a lot of interest in your theories and book smart rhetoric. We are seeing the results today generated by book smart street stupid liberal elitists who continue to appeal to the 47% that don't pay any taxes. Whether or not taxpayers spend, save, invest, or pay off debt that increases the private economy and individual wealth which promotes the principles upon which this economy was built.

Unless you focus on the role of the govt. then nothing else matters. Appealing to special interest groups i.e. unions and the non income taxpayers you divide the country and do nothing to promote individual wealth creation.

Have you ever created a job? What is your experience at growing the economy? All your textbook rhetoric doesn't equate to the real world and the bottom line remains, people keeping more of what they earn means less of a "need" for all that govt. help.

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My comments pertain to what you state here; i can care less about your opinions, beliefs etc.... You have neither the means or justification to bring me into your reply from a personal standpoint. Instead of responding to my statements, you become emotional and attack me. This is a weak way of arguing (juvenile actually).

Do you see? I am responding to what you actually state, not my perception of "why" you state it.

argumentum ad hominem, is an attempt to link the validity of a premise to a characteristic or belief of the person advocating the premise. The ad hominem is a classic logical fallacy. The ad hominem is not always fallacious, for in some instances questions of personal conduct, character, motives, etc., are legitimate and relevant to the issue.

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Ad hominem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

Goldenboy219 said:

My comments pertain to what you state here; i can care less about your opinions, beliefs etc.... You have neither the means or justification to bring me into your reply from a personal standpoint. Instead of responding to my statements, you become emotional and attack me. This is a weak way of arguing (juvenile actually).

Do you see? I am responding to what you actually state, not my perception of "why" you state it.


Ad hominem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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My statement and beliefs come from 35 years in the business world actually running a multi million dollar business thus real life experiences and that coupled with the book smarts gained from a college degree formed my knowledge base and thus gives me the credibility to refute booksmart liberals with no real life experiences.

Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

Goldenboy219 said:

My comments pertain to what you state here; i can care less about your opinions, beliefs etc.... You have neither the means or justification to bring me into your reply from a personal standpoint. Instead of responding to my statements, you become emotional and attack me. This is a weak way of arguing (juvenile actually).

Do you see? I am responding to what you actually state, not my perception of "why" you state it.


Ad hominem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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The topic of this thread is GOP plan to extend tax cuts for rich adds 36 billion to the deficit so rather than getting personal tell me how elimination of those tax cuts cuts 36 billion from the deficit?

Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

Conservative said:

My statement and beliefs come from 35 years in the business world actually running a multi million dollar business thus real life experiences and that coupled with the book smarts gained from a college degree formed my knowledge base and thus gives me the credibility to refute booksmart liberals with no real life experiences.

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This is an internet forum, you are in no position to make claims about me on a personal level. Your constant display of anti intellectualism only diminishes your arguments. Which is a common tactic employed by those who are losing arguments. If you cannot keep up with the conversation, destroy it by dumbing it down.

FWIW, given your grasp of the topics you try to discuss, e.g. supply side economics, I'd ask my Alma mater for my money back. :lamo

Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

Goldenboy219 said:

This is an internet forum, you are in no position to make claims about me on a personal level. Your constant display of anti intellectualism only diminishes your arguments. Which is a common tactic employed by those who are losing arguments. If you cannot keep up with the conversation, destroy it by dumbing it down.

FWIW, given your grasp of the topics you try to discuss, e.g. supply side economics, I'd ask my Alma mater for my money back. :lamo

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that is pretty funny which is what all do when they cannot intellectually discuss the topic or divert from the thread topic. The topic of this thread is GOP plans to extend tax cuts for the rich and my question to you is how increasing taxes on the rich will reduce the Federal Deficit 36 billion dollars?

It does seem that the book smart people on this thread have difficulty with logic, common sense, and actual facts. Before claiming anyone is losing the argument you would have to provide proof of that. Looks to me like the personal attacks and baiting are coming from you.

Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

Conservative said:

that is pretty funny which is what all do when they cannot intellectually discuss the topic or divert from the thread topic. The topic of this thread is GOP plans to extend tax cuts for the rich and my question to you is how increasing taxes on the rich will reduce the Federal Deficit 36 billion dollars?

It does seem that the book smart people on this thread have difficulty with logic, common sense, and actual facts. Before claiming anyone is losing the argument you would have to provide proof of that. Looks to me like the personal attacks and baiting are coming from you.

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why do the rich need 36 billion more in tax cuts? i already know your whole spiel about 'keeping more of your own money' and 'class warfare' responses, so, why do they need them? what difference would a few extra dollars mean to them? and please avoid the above mentioned 'talking points' of yours....

Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

randel said:

why do the rich need 36 billion more in tax cuts? i already know your whole spiel about 'keeping more of your own money' and 'class warfare' responses, so, why do they need them? what difference would a few extra dollars mean to them? and please avoid the above mentioned 'talking points' of yours....

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What makes you an expert on what the rich need? It is their money so although you are entitled to your opinion where is the guarantee that first the govt will get an additional 36 billion in tax revenue by the tax increase and second that they will use the money to grow the economy and reduce the deficits by that amount?

All this is is class envy and warfare that makes no sense. I have asked over and over but no answer, tell me what economic prediction this Administration has made that has been accurate? They now claim that the expiration of the tax cuts will provide another 36 billion in revenue. Where is the proof of that?

Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

Conservative said:

What makes you an expert on what the rich need? It is their money so although you are entitled to your opinion where is the guarantee that first the govt will get an additional 36 billion in tax revenue by the tax increase and second that they will use the money to grow the economy and reduce the deficits by that amount?

All this is is class envy and warfare that makes no sense. I have asked over and over but no answer, tell me what economic prediction this Administration has made that has been accurate? They now claim that the expiration of the tax cuts will provide another 36 billion in revenue. Where is the proof of that?

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as i figured, right back to the talking points...why are they in need of a tax cut? where is the guarantee that they would put that money back into the economy, and create jobs? that seems to be the argument that you and several others make...where is that guaranteed?

Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

randel said:

as i figured, right back to the talking points...why are they in need of a tax cut? where is the guarantee that they would put that money back into the economy, and create jobs? that seems to be the argument that you and several others make...where is that guaranteed?

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Why do they need a tax cut shouldn't be the issue in a free enterprise economy? The fact that you would ask the question says a lot about you almost as much as diverting from the question I asked you.

Where is the guarantee? What do people do when they get to keep more of what they earn? Your take home pay goes up and what do you do with the money? The rich are no different, they spend it, save it, invest it, or pay down debt all positively affecting the economy just like you and the millions of others in this country do with their personal income.

Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

Conservative said:

Why do they need a tax cut shouldn't be the issue in a free enterprise economy? The fact that you would ask the question says a lot about you almost as much as diverting from the question I asked you.

Where is the guarantee? What do people do when they get to keep more of what they earn? Your take home pay goes up and what do you do with the money? The rich are no different, they spend it, save it, invest it, or pay down debt all positively affecting the economy just like you and the millions of others in this country do with their personal income.

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you still havent answered my question, why should they have their tax burden lessened?

Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

randel said:

you still havent answered my question, why should they have their tax burden lessened?

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Because it is their money, it isn't the government's money! Keep diverting from how the govt. uses taxdollars to the failed argument of why someone "needs" the money they earn? Why do you work? Why did you go to school? Why do you need the money that you make? Why don't you volunteer to send more of your money to the govt? Now aren't those stupid questions?

Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

Conservative said:

Because it is their money, it isn't the government's money! Keep diverting from how the govt. uses taxdollars to the failed argument of why someone "needs" the money they earn? Why do you work? Why did you go to school? Why do you need the money that you make? Why don't you volunteer to send more of your money to the govt? Now aren't those stupid questions?

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you still havent answered the question...with a budget deficit, why are we talking about giving a break to the richest in the country....why? you keep trying to spin everything to a 'class warfare' arguement, when it isnt...it is a common sense question, something you claim to have alot of ....so where is the sense in extending tax breaks to those whom it wont make alot of difference to? if you can't see the stupidity in doing this, don't waste your time responding.

Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

randel said:

you still havent answered the question...with a budget deficit, why are we talking about giving a break to the richest in the country....why? you keep trying to spin everything to a 'class warfare' arguement, when it isnt...it is a common sense question, something you claim to have alot of ....so where is the sense in extending tax breaks to those whom it wont make alot of difference to? if you can't see the stupidity in doing this, don't waste your time responding.

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Because you haven't proven that more money first will go to the govt. and second that it will be used to lower the deficit. You continue to believe what this Administration tells you but don't have anything to back up that belief.

Yes, I do have common sense and know that human behavior is ignored when it comes to politicians and liberals. The fact that you ignore what you do with more take home pay is quite telling plus the fact that you seem to care more about how much revenue the govt. gets instead of how much income you get to keep.

You don't know that the tax cuts to the so called rich aren't needed because you don't seem to have a clue as to who those tax cuts affect. Many are small businesses that employ people and when their cost of doing business increases the first to go are employees.

if you can't see the stupidity in doing this, don't waste your time responding.

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Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

Conservative said:

that is pretty funny which is what all do when they cannot intellectually discuss the topic or divert from the thread topic. The topic of this thread is GOP plans to extend tax cuts for the rich and my question to you is how increasing taxes on the rich will reduce the Federal Deficit 36 billion dollars?

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The topic has not been discussed for dozens of pages. You made a silly comment about "supply side economics" which ended up biting you in the ass. In a last attempt to divert my commentary, you now want to discuss the topic from 60+ pages ago.

It does seem that the book smart people on this thread have difficulty with logic, common sense, and actual facts.

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Anyone who disagrees with you has difficulty with log, common sense, and actual facts. Remember, there is difference between normative and positive economics. It is a fallacy of composition to believe you can use normative rants to construct a positive statement.

Before claiming anyone is losing the argument you would have to provide proof of that.

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The proof is in your response. Instead of addressing my statements, you completely ignore them and then begin labeling me. Liberal, book smart-street stupid, etc.... AKA the grumblings of defeat.

Looks to me like the personal attacks and baiting are coming from you.

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I only replied to your statement. Given the content of your posts (unable to even recognize demand vs supply deficiencies), one can only question. Maybe if you could control yourself from posting anecdotes in a discussion about economic policy, i would not have the ammunition to make such a statement. To put it bluntly, discuss the topic, not yourself and your perception of others.

Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

Conservative said:

Because you haven't proven that more money first will go to the govt. and second that it will be used to lower the deficit. You continue to believe what this Administration tells you but don't have anything to back up that belief.

Yes, I do have common sense and know that human behavior is ignored when it comes to politicians and liberals. The fact that you ignore what you do with more take home pay is quite telling plus the fact that you seem to care more about how much revenue the govt. gets instead of how much income you get to keep.

You don't know that the tax cuts to the so called rich aren't needed because you don't seem to have a clue as to who those tax cuts affect. Many are small businesses that employ people and when their cost of doing business increases the first to go are employees.

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are you fiscally conservative? then giving tax breaks that are not needed, should not make alot of sense to you, when you are running a deficit.

Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

Goldenboy219 said:

The topic has not been discussed for dozens of pages. You made a silly comment about "supply side economics" which ended up biting you in the ass. In a last attempt to divert my commentary, you now want to discuss the topic from 60+ pages ago.



Anyone who disagrees with you has difficulty with log, common sense, and actual facts. Remember, there is difference between normative and positive economics. It is a fallacy of composition to believe you can use normative rants to construct a positive statement.



The proof is in your response. Instead of addressing my statements, you completely ignore them and then begin labeling me. Liberal, book smart-street stupid, etc.... AKA the grumblings of defeat.



I only replied to your statement. Given the content of your posts (unable to even recognize demand vs supply deficiencies), one can only question. Maybe if you could control yourself from posting anecdotes in a discussion about economic policy, i would not have the ammunition to make such a statement. To put it bluntly, discuss the topic, not yourself and your perception of others.

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Nothing in that post addresses the topic of this thread and is directly focused on attacking me. Post the definition of a personal attack again. Every one of your statements has been addressed and your entire argument ignores human behavior and the affects of tax cuts on that behavior.

We have a an economy based upon free enterprise, capitalism and individual wealth creation which apparently is one that you don't understand or haven't learned in your textbooks. There is a lot to be gained by reading books however it really is a shame that people like you ignore real people and their personal behavior in making your arguments.

Tell me how letting the tax cuts expire on the rich will affect their behavior especially since many of those so called rich are small business owners? Tell me again what people do when they get more take home pay including the rich? See if you can find that in your textbooks? What guarantee do you have that letting the tax cuts expire for the "rich" will generate 36 billion more dollars to the Treasury and more importantly if it does happen that it will be used to pay down the deficits?

Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

Conservative said:

Why do you want to penalize people simply because they make more than you?

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Because the country needs money, and the rich can afford to pay it, not for philosophical, political, or idealistic reasons...

ricksfolly

Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

ricksfolly said:

Because the country needs money, and the rich can afford to pay it, not for philosophical, political, or idealistic reasons...

ricksfolly

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LOL, the country needs the money? Needs the money to do what? Where is the proof that the expiration of the tax cuts on the rich will generate another 36 billion to the govt?

Why is it liberals always believe what they are told by another liberal even though the facts refute that rhetoric? What do you do when you get to keep more of your own money?

We have an Administration that hasn't told the truth or been accurate on any economic issue yet on this one they are right? Pardon me for being skeptical and using history as a guide. Even if that amount of revenue is collected by the govt. history shows it will be spent vs. reducing the deficit and paying down the debt.

Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

Conservative said:

Nothing in that post addresses the topic of this thread and is directly focused on attacking me. Post the definition of a personal attack again. Every one of your statements has been addressed and your entire argument ignores human behavior and the affects of tax cuts on that behavior.

We have a an economy based upon free enterprise, capitalism and individual wealth creation which apparently is one that you don't understand or haven't learned in your textbooks. There is a lot to be gained by reading books however it really is a shame that people like you ignore real people and their personal behavior in making your arguments.

Tell me how letting the tax cuts expire on the rich will affect their behavior especially since many of those so called rich are small business owners? Tell me again what people do when they get more take home pay including the rich? See if you can find that in your textbooks? What guarantee do you have that letting the tax cuts expire for the "rich" will generate 36 billion more dollars to the Treasury and more importantly if it does happen that it will be used to pay down the deficits?

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Perhaps it would be better for Republicans to argue the other side. With all of the debt and deficits we have how can we afford to keep ANY of the Bush tax cuts. With a 3.8 trillion budget that this congress passed how can the country afford what is said to amount to the $2.1 trillion tax cut for people under $250K. How about some shared sacrifice. You can't just take from the top earners and give money we don't have to others.

It would also be good to talk about what the total tax rate is for "the wealthy". Remember that states have been taking the same tact. So top earners can easily be above 50%, excluding property taxes, sales taxes etc. Also the health care bill has a surcharge on certain income for top earners of 3.8%.

Lastly, if you live in CT, NY, NJ, Calif $250K is by no means wealthy. It is comfortable, but housing prices, property taxes which are often more than $10K with houses that cost at $500K means you are certainly not "rich".

Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

washunut said:

Perhaps it would be better for Republicans to argue the other side. With all of the debt and deficits we have how can we afford to keep ANY of the Bush tax cuts. With a 3.8 trillion budget that this congress passed how can the country afford what is said to amount to the $2.1 trillion tax cut for people under $250K. How about some shared sacrifice. You can't just take from the top earners and give money we don't have to others.

It would also be good to talk about what the total tax rate is for "the wealthy". Remember that states have been taking the same tact. So top earners can easily be above 50%, excluding property taxes, sales taxes etc. Also the health care bill has a surcharge on certain income for top earners of 3.8%.

Lastly, if you live in CT, NY, NJ, Calif $250K is by no means wealthy. It is comfortable, but housing prices, property taxes which are often more than $10K with houses that cost at $500K means you are certainly not "rich".

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I don't think liberals really want to discuss the other side of the issue as they are having a tough time with this side. Another issue is the 47% that don't pay any Federal Income taxes and the amount they use of the Federal Treasury without any shared sacrifice at all. Interesting how the focus is on the 2% while ignoring this 47%.

Then there is the tough question of how does anyone know that elimination of the tax cut for the 2% will generate another 36 billion dollars? Obama says so? LOL, well we know how accurate he has been with his economic projections.

You make a good point though. Too bad it will be ignored by Obama supporters

Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

randel said:

you still havent answered the question...with a budget deficit, why are we talking about giving a break to the richest in the country....why? you keep trying to spin everything to a 'class warfare' arguement, when it isnt...it is a common sense question, something you claim to have alot of ....so where is the sense in extending tax breaks to those whom it wont make alot of difference to? if you can't see the stupidity in doing this, don't waste your time responding.

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He believes with his heart that tax cuts raise revenue (another fallacy of composition). When people begin to ignore history in an attempt to satisfy ideology, their statements are not genuine (even though they believe them with their hearts).

Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

Goldenboy219 said:

He believes with his heart that tax cuts raise revenue (another fallacy of composition). When people begin to ignore history in an attempt to satisfy ideology, their statements are not genuine (even though they believe them with their hearts).

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Apparently the fact that tax revenues grew AFTER both the Reagan and Bush tax cuts isn't something you understand nor can you explain. How can tax rates be cut 10-10-5% over three years and Federal Income tax revenue grow?

I am still waiting for you or anyone else to prove that the elimination of tax cuts for the "rich" will generate 36 billion dollars in more revenue to the Federal Govt? Since tax cuts in your world don't grow govt. revenue where is your proof that tax increases grow govt. revenue? Does it magically just appear to the govt?