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Thread: GOP plan to extend tax cuts for rich adds $36 billion

  1. #651
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    Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    LOL, the country needs the money? Needs the money to do what? Where is the proof that the expiration of the tax cuts on the rich will generate another 36 billion to the govt?
    You're either a patriot that wants to help your country during trying times, or you're not. It's as simple as that.

    ricksfolly

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    Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

    Quote Originally Posted by ricksfolly View Post
    You're either a patriot that wants to help your country during trying times, or you're not. It's as simple as that.

    ricksfolly
    How much help is this Administration doing putting 16 million Americans back to work? Stop buying the BS and answer the question, what guarantee do you have that 36 billion dollars will go to the govt. by letting the Bush tax cuts expire?

    If you want to talk patriotism why don't you talk to the 47% of the workers who don't pay any Federal Income taxes? You instead want to go after the top 2% that pay the most. That says a lot about you and anyone else that supports this folly.

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    Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

    Quote Originally Posted by ricksfolly View Post
    You're either a patriot that wants to help your country during trying times, or you're not. It's as simple as that.

    ricksfolly
    Rick, do you think it is patriotic to run up trillions in debt which runs the risk of destroying the value of our dollar?

    Tell me, Rick, when you get to keep more of your money what do you do with it and does that have any affect on the economy? If the govt. raises your taxes what does that do to the amount you take home each pay period and how does that affect your behavior?

    Do you think personal spending has any affect on the economy?

  4. #654
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    Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Nothing in that post addresses the topic of this thread and is directly focused on attacking me. Post the definition of a personal attack again. Every one of your statements has been addressed and your entire argument ignores human behavior and the affects of tax cuts on that behavior.
    You went off topic a few pages ago, calling you on it is certainly within the rules here @ DP. Calling you out for not being able to hold your ground without ad homs is really just me asking you to address my comments without speculating about me as a person. You are welcome to report the post if you truly believe I am breaking any rules.

    We have a an economy based upon free enterprise, capitalism and individual wealth creation which apparently is one that you don't understand or haven't learned in your textbooks.
    Can you specifically locate the post(s) that exemplify your statement? If not, you are making false accusations. I am quite familiar with market systems as i am an entrepreneur.

    There is a lot to be gained by reading books however it really is a shame that people like you ignore real people and their personal behavior in making your arguments.
    What specifically have i ignored? Ive made reference to tax cuts being a type of stimulus, along with the basic mechanics behind it. You completely ignored my comment by stating "liberals always want to overcomplicate things". Do you honestly believe that is a competent (let alone serious) response?

    Tell me how letting the tax cuts expire on the rich will affect their behavior especially since many of those so called rich are small business owners?
    Well it depends on many other variables. What is the net liquid wealth of these taxpayers? What is their debt ratio to yearly income? How old are they? Do they have children? What is the state of interest rates (an inflationary forecast) etc.... You cannot make an arbitrary statement without considering the spectrum. Given this dilemma, we are then forced to rely on aggregates to form somewhat of a model. What we do know is that those with high incomes tend to have more extravagant lifestyles (along with more liquidity e.g. savings). Another component is whether this particular demographic views the tax increase as permanent. If they do, then spending will decrease somewhat proportional to the increase in savings. If they think it is temporary, people will simply save less and maintain their current levels of consumption.

    Tell me again what people do when they get more take home pay including the rich?
    Again, that depends. What are their respective debt levels? Do they have children? How old are they? Again, we are then forced to resort to aggregates. A highly indebted society such as the US will pay down debt, which lowers growth (leads to recession). If a rather large segment of the working class begins to pay down debt, output will surely suffer in the short run (they are buying less and repaying more). If the extent of the tax cut is used to pay down debt, little if any demand will be stimulated. Are you willing to agree that the US consumer is heavily indebted?

    See if you can find that in your textbooks?
    Why are you so interested in me, that you are willing to speculate as to where my response comes from? Shouldn't you instead be focusing on the content of my statements, and not what you perceive ME as? Again, i am not here to debate you on a personal level.

    What guarantee do you have that letting the tax cuts expire for the "rich" will generate 36 billion more dollars to the Treasury and more importantly if it does happen that it will be used to pay down the deficits?
    Tax revenue = tax rate/taxable income. You increase the numerator, and revenue increases (all other things held constant). You might have a point if you can identify (and here lies the need for intellectualism) reasons for the denominator to decrease due to an increase in the denominator. The problem is, you will then need to rely on theory (complicating things) to formulate your hypothesis.
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

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    Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Apparently the fact that tax revenues grew AFTER both the Reagan and Bush tax cuts isn't something you understand nor can you explain. How can tax rates be cut 10-10-5% over three years and Federal Income tax revenue grow?
    Inflation!!!!! You know, that complicated stuff that street dumb book smart people bring up. Secondly, the tax revenues during the initial tax cuts were severely impacted by the recession. As recovery progressed, tax rates will naturally increase. Lastly, Reagan implemented a spending increase that was unprecedented at the time. Military Keynesiansim was successful in increasing aggregate demand. Synthesize all three concepts to formulate the reasons behind revenue growth. It should be noted that inflation was a major aspect of revenue increases.
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

  6. #656
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    Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    You went off topic a few pages ago, calling you on it is certainly within the rules here @ DP. Calling you out for not being able to hold your ground without ad homs is really just me asking you to address my comments without speculating about me as a person. You are welcome to report the post if you truly believe I am breaking any rules.



    Can you specifically locate the post(s) that exemplify your statement? If not, you are making false accusations. I am quite familiar with market systems as i am an entrepreneur.



    What specifically have i ignored? Ive made reference to tax cuts being a type of stimulus, along with the basic mechanics behind it. You completely ignored my comment by stating "liberals always want to overcomplicate things". Do you honestly believe that is a competent (let alone serious) response?



    Well it depends on many other variables. What is the net liquid wealth of these taxpayers? What is their debt ratio to yearly income? How old are they? Do they have children? What is the state of interest rates (an inflationary forecast) etc.... You cannot make an arbitrary statement without considering the spectrum. Given this dilemma, we are then forced to rely on aggregates to form somewhat of a model. What we do know is that those with high incomes tend to have more extravagant lifestyles (along with more liquidity e.g. savings). Another component is whether this particular demographic views the tax increase as permanent. If they do, then spending will decrease somewhat proportional to the increase in savings. If they think it is temporary, people will simply save less and maintain their current levels of consumption.



    Again, that depends. What are their respective debt levels? Do they have children? How old are they? Again, we are then forced to resort to aggregates. A highly indebted society such as the US will pay down debt, which lowers growth (leads to recession). If a rather large segment of the working class begins to pay down debt, output will surely suffer in the short run (they are buying less and repaying more). If the extent of the tax cut is used to pay down debt, little if any demand will be stimulated. Are you willing to agree that the US consumer is heavily indebted?



    Why are you so interested in me, that you are willing to speculate as to where my response comes from? Shouldn't you instead be focusing on the content of my statements, and not what you perceive ME as? Again, i am not here to debate you on a personal level.



    Tax revenue = tax rate/taxable income. You increase the numerator, and revenue increases (all other things held constant). You might have a point if you can identify (and here lies the need for intellectualism) reasons for the denominator to decrease due to an increase in the denominator. The problem is, you will then need to rely on theory (complicating things) to formulate your hypothesis.
    conservative fails to take into account all these other factors, it would be great if a tax cut would automatically spur the economy, as conservative suggests...

  7. #657
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    Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Rick, do you think it is patriotic to run up trillions in debt which runs the risk of destroying the value of our dollar?
    What Killed Off The GOP Deficit Hawks?


    DECEMBER 27, 2004
    HOW DID THIS SHIFT HAPPEN?



    Conversations with more than a dozen senior business leaders, including board members of the Concord Coalition, point to this progression: Since Ronald Reagan, a majority of Republican politicians have gradually come to conclude, as Vice-President Dick Cheney famously told former Treasury Secretary Paul H. O'Neill, that "deficits don't matter." What's interesting and alarming, however, is that different Republican factions believe deficits don't matter for opposite and incompatible reasons.


    Supply-siders believe deficits don't matter because tax cuts so boost investment and productivity that the economy grows its way out of debt. The opposite, "starve the beast" faction, epitomized by tax tactician Grover Norquist, hope tax cuts will indeed create deep deficits that will then force spending cuts. But both things can't be true.

    Under George W. Bush, the merry ideology calls for tax cuts in all seasons for all reasons. Spending has increased faster than under Clinton, and deficits have ballooned, yet tax cutting marches on. This privately scares many Republican business leaders. But very few are speaking out, either because they don't want to burn bridges to the White House or because they are too pleased with their tax cuts.


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    Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    Inflation!!!!! You know, that complicated stuff that street dumb book smart people bring up. Secondly, the tax revenues during the initial tax cuts were severely impacted by the recession. As recovery progressed, tax rates will naturally increase. Lastly, Reagan implemented a spending increase that was unprecedented at the time. Military Keynesiansim was successful in increasing aggregate demand. Synthesize all three concepts to formulate the reasons behind revenue growth. It should be noted that inflation was a major aspect of revenue increases.
    Still waiting for a response to the questions, where is the guarantee that expiration of the Bush tax cuts on the rich will generate 36 billion in tax revenue to the Treasury? that is the thread topic.

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    Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

    Quote Originally Posted by pbrauer View Post
    Spending increases had nothing to do with the tax cuts nor did the deficits. Spending causes debt not tax cuts. I thought the thread topic was how elimination of the Bush tax cuts for the top 2% was going to generate 36 billion to the Treasury, prove it?

  10. #660
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    Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

    Quote Originally Posted by randel View Post
    conservative fails to take into account all these other factors, it would be great if a tax cut would automatically spur the economy, as conservative suggests...
    What affect do you have on the economy when you have more money to spend?

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