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Thread: GOP plan to extend tax cuts for rich adds $36 billion

  1. #411
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    Re: GOP plan to extend tax cuts for rich adds $36 billion

    Quote Originally Posted by drz-400 View Post
    It is literally impossible for debt held by the public to go down (as it did during the later clinton years) and to have a budget deficit. The government cannot borrow on behalf of itself. The intergovernmental holdings are debts to other programs. It basically takes money that has been garanteed to be used in that program (like SS) and puts it into the general fund for spending. This once again can only happan if the program (like SS for example) has a surplus in the first place.

    There was a budget surplus and as a result explicit debt went down. Implicit debt increased due largely to the nature of the SS trust fund.

    Debt held by the public:
    09/30/1998 3,733,864,472,163.53
    09/30/1999 3,636,104,594,501.81
    09/29/2000 3,405,303,490,221.20
    Government - Debt to the Penny (Daily History Search Application)
    The problem is any SS surplus really isn't a surplus at all, it is money that will be required for future retirees so what happened is public debt went down because of SS funds being used and those SS funds were replaced by IOU's that will come due and thus are future debt thus part of the total national debt. The fact remains Clinton didn't have a Budget surplus because the combination of Public Debt and Govt. holdings combined went up each year of his Administration

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    Re: GOP plan to extend tax cuts for rich adds $36 billion

    Q:
    During the Clinton administration was the federal budget balanced? Was the federal deficit erased?
    A:
    Yes to both questions, whether you count Social Security or not.


    This chart, based on historical figures from the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office, shows the total deficit or surplus for each fiscal year from 1990 through 2006. Keep in mind that fiscal years begin Oct. 1, so the first year that can be counted as a Clinton year is fiscal 1994. The appropriations bills for fiscal years 1990 through 1993 were signed by Bill Clinton's predecessor, George H.W. Bush. Fiscal 2002 is the first for which President George W. Bush signed the appropriations bills, and the first to show the effect of his tax cuts.






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    Re: GOP plan to extend tax cuts for rich adds $36 billion

    Quote Originally Posted by pbrauer View Post
    Q:
    During the Clinton administration was the federal budget balanced? Was the federal deficit erased?
    A:
    Yes to both questions, whether you count Social Security or not.


    This chart, based on historical figures from the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office, shows the total deficit or surplus for each fiscal year from 1990 through 2006. Keep in mind that fiscal years begin Oct. 1, so the first year that can be counted as a Clinton year is fiscal 1994. The appropriations bills for fiscal years 1990 through 1993 were signed by Bill Clinton's predecessor, George H.W. Bush. Fiscal 2002 is the first for which President George W. Bush signed the appropriations bills, and the first to show the effect of his tax cuts.




    The NON partisan CBO doesn't trump the U.S. Treasury site and the actual numbers. No matter how hard you try, the checkbook of the United States has the actual results.

    Verifying this is as simple as accessing the U.S. Treasury (see note about this link below) website where the national debt is updated daily and a history of the debt since January 1993 can be obtained. Considering the government's fiscal year ends on the last day of September each year, and considering Clinton's budget proposal in 1993 took effect in October 1993 and concluded September 1994 (FY1994), here's the national debt at the end of each year of Clinton Budgets:


    Fiscal
    Year Year
    Ending National Debt Deficit
    FY1993 09/30/1993 $4.411488 trillion
    FY1994 09/30/1994 $4.692749 trillion $281.26 billion
    FY1995 09/29/1995 $4.973982 trillion $281.23 billion
    FY1996 09/30/1996 $5.224810 trillion $250.83 billion
    FY1997 09/30/1997 $5.413146 trillion $188.34 billion
    FY1998 09/30/1998 $5.526193 trillion $113.05 billion
    FY1999 09/30/1999 $5.656270 trillion $130.08 billion
    FY2000 09/29/2000 $5.674178 trillion $17.91 billion
    FY2001 09/28/2001 $5.807463 trillion $133.29 billion



    As can clearly be seen, in no year did the national debt go down, nor did Clinton leave President Bush with a surplus that Bush subsequently turned into a deficit. Yes, the deficit was almost eliminated in FY2000 (ending in September 2000 with a deficit of "only" $17.9 billion), but it never reached zero--let alone a positive surplus number. And Clinton's last budget proposal for FY2001, which ended in September 2001, generated a $133.29 billion deficit. The growing deficits started in the year of the last Clinton budget, not in the first year of the Bush administration.

    Keep in mind that President Bush took office in January 2001 and his first budget took effect October 1, 2001 for the year ending September 30, 2002 (FY2002). So the $133.29 billion deficit in the year ending September 2001 was Clinton's. Granted, Bush supported a tax refund where taxpayers received checks in 2001. However, the total amount refunded to taxpayers was only $38 billion . So even if we assume that $38 billion of the FY2001 deficit was due to Bush's tax refunds which were not part of Clinton's last budget, that still means that Clinton's last budget produced a deficit of 133.29 - 38 = $95.29 billion.

    Clinton clearly did not achieve a surplus and he didn't leave President Bush with a surplus.
    Last edited by Conservative; 08-23-10 at 08:47 PM. Reason: Added Treasury Data

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    Re: GOP plan to extend tax cuts for rich adds $36 billion

    Quote Originally Posted by pbrauer View Post
    Q:
    During the Clinton administration was the federal budget balanced? Was the federal deficit erased?
    A:
    Yes to both questions, whether you count Social Security or not.


    This chart, based on historical figures from the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office, shows the total deficit or surplus for each fiscal year from 1990 through 2006. Keep in mind that fiscal years begin Oct. 1, so the first year that can be counted as a Clinton year is fiscal 1994. The appropriations bills for fiscal years 1990 through 1993 were signed by Bill Clinton's predecessor, George H.W. Bush. Fiscal 2002 is the first for which President George W. Bush signed the appropriations bills, and the first to show the effect of his tax cuts.




    Regarding your CBO numbers, please note what the CBO is reporting is public debt not total debt

    Congressional Budget Office (CBO) vs. These "Partisan" Numbers

    Another common response to the above explanation of the myth of the Clinton surplus is that the budget surpluses are based on the numbers produced by the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office (CBO). Indeed if you access the CBO's "historic budget data" document , on the fist page you will see that 1998 shows a surplus of $69 billion, 1999 shows $126 billion, 2000 shows $236 billion--the same surpluses claimed by Clinton and CNN in the article mentioned at the top of this page.

    However, further analysis of the document should make it very clear that important information is missing from the CBO document--specifically focusing on the last two columns of the table on page 1. If you take the $3,772.3 billion debt held by the public at the end of 1997 and subtract the "total" $69.3 billion surplus stated for 1998, you would expect to see the debt go down by 69.3 billion to $3,703 billion. Instead, the debt indicated for 1998 is $3,721.1 billion--suggesting a surplus of only $51.2 billion. This alone should tell you that the CBO numbers aren't telling the whole story because they don't add up--and the story they aren't telling is intragovernmental holdings.

    The reality is that the federal government and politicians use a form of accounting that would get most accountants thrown in jail. As USA Today wrote in 2007 , special rules used by the federal government allowed it to report a $248 billion deficit in 2006 rather than $1.3 trillion if it had used corporate-style accounting.

    While the CBO may be non-partisan, that does not mean the CBO is non-political nor that their numbers are honest or transparent.

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    Re: GOP plan to extend tax cuts for rich adds $36 billion

    Quote Originally Posted by pbrauer View Post
    Q:
    During the Clinton administration was the federal budget balanced? Was the federal deficit erased?
    A:
    Yes to both questions, whether you count Social Security or not.


    This chart, based on historical figures from the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office, shows the total deficit or surplus for each fiscal year from 1990 through 2006. Keep in mind that fiscal years begin Oct. 1, so the first year that can be counted as a Clinton year is fiscal 1994. The appropriations bills for fiscal years 1990 through 1993 were signed by Bill Clinton's predecessor, George H.W. Bush. Fiscal 2002 is the first for which President George W. Bush signed the appropriations bills, and the first to show the effect of his tax cuts.




    Figured out where the CBO was wrong yet? Public Debt PLUS Intergovernmental Holdings= TOTAL DEBT and that debt never dropped once during the Clinton years. Really is interesting how so many people put so much faith in the CBO numbers while ignoring the U.S. Treasury, BEA, or BLS which has actual numbers, all of them.

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    Re: GOP plan to extend tax cuts for rich adds $36 billion

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Clinton had a GOP Congress so the question is did Clinton sign bills with higher or lower spending than he proposed? Clinton benefited from the dot.com bubble but when it burst the economy tumbled and he left us a recession.

    Now can I ask why we are reliving the Clinton/Bush Presidencies when the current President has added 3 trillion to the debt in two years and 4 million to the unemployment roles?
    Ok, that is a good first question. Budgeting is shared responsibility between Congress and the President, though. Clinton does deserve some credit, though, for agreeing to GOP's demands and signing the budget into law. Now I'm wondering who was the GOP leader responsible for reducing spending, what happened to that leader and in general what happened to the GOP in the next 6 years during Bush's term when spending increased? I would just like to see a balanced budget, and coming within range to a balanced budget and then progressing to large deficits is not good.

    I, too, am a critic of President Obama's current spending, I think we shouldn't be spending money if we don't have it. I think people on both sides of the aisle have been spending too much, regardless of party.

    In anticipation of some questions on spending during Bush's term, here is a link regarding the increase in discretionary and general spending during Bush's term:
    Spending Under President George W. Bush | Mercatus
    Last edited by Opteron; 08-24-10 at 02:03 AM.

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    Re: GOP plan to extend tax cuts for rich adds $36 billion

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    The problem is any SS surplus really isn't a surplus at all, it is money that will be required for future retirees so what happened is public debt went down because of SS funds being used and those SS funds were replaced by IOU's that will come due and thus are future debt thus part of the total national debt. The fact remains Clinton didn't have a Budget surplus because the combination of Public Debt and Govt. holdings combined went up each year of his Administration
    There was a budget surplus. It is literally impossible to pay down the debt owned by the public with a budget deficit. It goes by definition.

    National debt = public debt + intragovernmental holdings

    We have already identified that public debt went down. Intragovernmental holds rose by more than the public debt went down, therby increasing the national debt.

    Conservative, if the SS trust fund purchases a treasury, where does the money come from? Can the government have a budget deficit without issuing debt to the public?

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    Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

    Only more than others.

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    Re: GOP plan to extend tax cuts for rich adds $36 billion

    Quote Originally Posted by drz-400 View Post
    There was a budget surplus. It is literally impossible to pay down the debt owned by the public with a budget deficit. It goes by definition.

    National debt = public debt + intragovernmental holdings

    We have already identified that public debt went down. Intragovernmental holds rose by more than the public debt went down, therby increasing the national debt.

    Conservative, if the SS trust fund purchases a treasury, where does the money come from? Can the government have a budget deficit without issuing debt to the public?
    Not sure why you guys are torturing yourselves. Something like 25 years ago congress passed what they called a "unified" budget. That is to make things look better they took the SS surplus and added it to the budget to less less of a deficit or in the case you are talking about a surplus.

    As to whether the government can have debt that is not publicly held. My sense is the answer is yes. The money in the SS trust, that was paid for with the insurance money people had taken away as a pension should not be confused with other monies. If you remember, Gore talked about a "lock box". People scuffed at him. Now it looks like the government may actually steal those dollars from retirees so yes it should be considered debt in my view.

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    Re: GOP plan to extend tax cuts for rich adds $36 billion

    Enough said there! The truth is pretty clear. And while we're on the subject of hypocrisy in messages. This is the same group of people who vehemently and violently oppose the practice of Muslims who wish to impose religious laws, and then suggest they impose them on us here. They don't want "big government" in their money, but they want their big government eye on your personal life, don't they?

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