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Thread: GOP plan to extend tax cuts for rich adds $36 billion

  1. #131
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    Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

    Quote Originally Posted by pbrauer View Post
    Congress had nothing to do with the recession, it was the mortgage meltdown and WS that caused it. Please don't give those tired talking points the Barny Frank and Chris Dodd and/or the CRA that caused it. It's bs.
    Didn't you vote for Obama to "clean up the Bush mess" How's it going so far?

    3 trillion added to the debt
    4 million less employed
    3 million added to the unemployment roles
    Economic growth slowing again
    Promise of unemployment not exceeding 8% broken

  2. #132
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    Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Funny, I've necver seen anyone call a recession "just fine" before. By that standard, today's economy must be DANDY!



    But you will overlook the fact that Bush created a brand new unconstitutional entitlement and did nothing to cut spending on all the other unconstitutional nonsense the federal government is still wasting money on, and naturally, it's the unconstitutional spending that's seiving the defici. It is, after all, illegal.
    Yes, the ridiculous spending of the Republican Party between 2000 and 2006 is part of it.

    BUT a tax cut without cutting spending to match IS just the same as spending and contributes to the deficit. Tax Cuts, if they are not properly targeted and matched with spending cuts, are the same as spending and contribute to the deficit.

    If you take a job that pays you $4000 less in revenue, isn't that about the same as if you kept the same job and spent the $4000?

    Tax Cuts are magically little glorious things that make the economy grow. Sometimes they do. Sometimes, as was the case with the Bush tax cuts, they merely redistribute wealth - in this case upwards. They are the reason that you saw growth in the economy, but you saw it concentrated in the top 10% of earners while the bottom 90% of earners split 12% of the growth post-early 2000s recession. Even before the Great Recession began, his period in office was THE WORST for creating jobs growth since Hoover. I thought those tax cuts were supposed to create jobs? They didn't. They didn't work.

    The only way to create jobs right now is to create demand for American products and services. Right now, the wealthiest Americans are still spending for products and services because they still have money. All signs point to the fact that their economy has improved (Wealthiest Americans see their net worth bounce back sharply - MSN Money), while for the middle and working classes, things have not improved.

    You fix the economy by focusing on the middle class and the working class. Give them the stimulus of further tax cuts. I would also cut all interest on student loans (those in good standing), reducing monthly payments which will spur more spending. When people start spending more, then they will increase demand, which will create more jobs, which will get people back to work.

    For the wealthiest classes and corporations, I would eliminate the Bush tax rate (go back to Clinton rates), but I would institute a tax incentive based on number of new hires of American employees. If they hire enough new people (only full-time with benefits would count), they could actually pay $0 in taxes. But they have to do it through hiring, not through hoarding cash (Companies pile up cash but remain hesitant to add jobs).

    I don't think these are crazy liberal ideas. It's just a more fair way of using tax code to spur the economy into action.

    Call it crazy liberal if you want. But I think it would work. Simply cutting taxes for the rich hasn't done damn thing for the working and middle classes, as their economy during the 2000s was essentially stagnant and was a terrible decade: Rising prices, stagnant income pinch families
    Aughts were a lost decade for U.S. economy, workers - washingtonpost.com - and it was bad for them even before the recession.

    The recession was such a disaster because their income had been stagnant since 2000, which means they weren't prepared for crisis.

    How can you not see that when it was there all along?

    The Bush tax cuts did dick for the economy; except contribute to the deficit (because they weren't matched with spending cuts, and we were not asked to sacrifice a thing for TWO wars). CBO Data Show Tax Cuts Have Played Much Larger Role than Domestic Spending Increases in Fueling the Deficit — Center on Budget and Policy Priorities

  3. #133
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    Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

    Quote Originally Posted by FilmFestGuy
    Call it crazy liberal if you want. But I think it would work. Simply cutting taxes for the rich hasn't done damn thing for the working and middle classes, as their economy during the 2000s
    If that were all that had happened, you may have had a point but it didn't so your argument is garbage.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  4. #134
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    Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Didn't you vote for Obama to "clean up the Bush mess" How's it going so far?

    3 trillion added to the debt
    4 million less employed
    3 million added to the unemployment roles
    Economic growth slowing again
    Promise of unemployment not exceeding 8% broken
    All this is true; but do you want to return control to the party who caused the mess?

    You're like the abused wife who goes back to the abuser because the shelter wasn't very pretty.

    Reagan had a mess to fix too, and unemployment went up when he started. It was 7.4% when he started (in February '81 - I give them the last few weeks of January). In August of '82 (Obama's equivalent), the unemployment rate under Reagan was 9.8%. Under Reagan, it would continue to go up to 10.8% before it would begin its downward trend. And it was not until November of 1987 that he got it under 6%. U.S. Unemployment Rate: SA, Percent

    Reagan also saw a HUGE increase in the deficits during his tenure. National debt by U.S. presidential terms - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Back then, were you as angry about growing unemployment and increasing deficit spending?

    I'm just saying. If you were angry at Reagan because of those things, then you can be upset at Obama, too.

    They were each dealt a crappy economy and they each did things to try to fix them, and in both cases, fixing it took longer than they thought. They're not the same and I'm not claiming it, but the similarities of their early terms are striking.

    I, personally, didn't expect things would turn pretty right away. I think any American who did (party aside) is pretty delusional. How do you recover from the worst decade since the Great Depression?

  5. #135
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    Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

    Quote Originally Posted by FilmFestGuy View Post
    All this is true; but do you want to return control to the party who caused the mess?

    You're like the abused wife who goes back to the abuser because the shelter wasn't very pretty.

    Reagan had a mess to fix too, and unemployment went up when he started. It was 7.4% when he started (in February '81 - I give them the last few weeks of January). In August of '82 (Obama's equivalent), the unemployment rate under Reagan was 9.8%. Under Reagan, it would continue to go up to 10.8% before it would begin its downward trend. And it was not until November of 1987 that he got it under 6%. U.S. Unemployment Rate: SA, Percent

    Reagan also saw a HUGE increase in the deficits during his tenure. National debt by U.S. presidential terms - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Back then, were you as angry about growing unemployment and increasing deficit spending?

    I'm just saying. If you were angry at Reagan because of those things, then you can be upset at Obama, too.

    They were each dealt a crappy economy and they each did things to try to fix them, and in both cases, fixing it took longer than they thought. They're not the same and I'm not claiming it, but the similarities of their early terms are striking.

    I, personally, didn't expect things would turn pretty right away. I think any American who did (party aside) is pretty delusional. How do you recover from the worst decade since the Great Depression?
    For the moment, let's pretend that the situations are perfectly identical.

    In the run up to the 1982 Congressional elections, how do you think Democrats were characterizing Reagan's presidency? Do you think they were urging the public to give Reagan a chance and pointing out the tough hand he had been dealt, or do you think they were doing the exact same thing that the Republicans are doing right now?
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

  6. #136
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    Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    If that were all that had happened, you may have had a point but it didn't so your argument is garbage.
    How so? Did you not read a piece of the literature I posted? For the average family, income was stagnant and practically no jobs were created in the 2000s. How was it good? What good did the Bush tax cuts do? How is the economy one iota better off than it was before the cuts? It's not. It's not good at all.

    2000s the Worst Decade since 1930s » Plan B Economics
    The End of the 2000s: Goodbye to a Decade from Hell - TIME
    After Equities' Worst Decade Ever, the 2010s Gotta Get Better, Right? - DailyFinance

    I'm just trying to find out where the middle and working classes ended up better off in the 2000s.

    Or is there something else that you're saying is crap? Because the 2000s sucked for all but the wealthiest class of earners. I'm sorry, but it's fact. That's the way it went down.

  7. #137
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    Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

    Quote Originally Posted by FilmFestGuy View Post
    How so? Did you not read a piece of the literature I posted? For the average family, income was stagnant and practically no jobs were created in the 2000s. How was it good? What good did the Bush tax cuts do? How is the economy one iota better off than it was before the cuts? It's not. It's not good at all.

    2000s the Worst Decade since 1930s » Plan B Economics
    The End of the 2000s: Goodbye to a Decade from Hell - TIME
    After Equities' Worst Decade Ever, the 2010s Gotta Get Better, Right? - DailyFinance

    I'm just trying to find out where the middle and working classes ended up better off in the 2000s.

    Or is there something else that you're saying is crap? Because the 2000s sucked for all but the wealthiest class of earners. I'm sorry, but it's fact. That's the way it went down.
    All you're talking about is tax rates (which everyone who paid taxes got a cut) and not including the expansion of programs like EITC and other refundable tax credits.
    Like it or not they add to the bottom line of a persons income.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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    Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    For the moment, let's pretend that the situations are perfectly identical.

    In the run up to the 1982 Congressional elections, how do you think Democrats were characterizing Reagan's presidency? Do you think they were urging the public to give Reagan a chance and pointing out the tough hand he had been dealt, or do you think they were doing the exact same thing that the Republicans are doing right now?
    I know that's how they ran their campaigns. That said, I don't recall it being quite as vitriolic. Granted I was like 12 at the time and didn't pay as much attention.

    And actually, I was just looking at this chart (Presidential Approval Ratings History - Interactive Comparison Graph - WSJ.com) and it appears he may have even had a lower approval rating than Obama.

    It gets more interesting...

  9. #139
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    Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    All you're talking about is tax rates (which everyone who paid taxes got a cut) and not including the expansion of programs like EITC and other refundable tax credits.
    Like it or not they add to the bottom line of a persons income.
    But what good did it do? Sure, people took home a little bit more, but it didn't stimulate job or income growth at all. All it did is (in conjunction with two wars) increase the deficit and grow incomes for the top 10%.

    It didn't help the middle classes at all, because their income growth didn't match inflation during the 2000s. Who care if you pay 2% less in taxes if inflation is eating everything up that you earn?

    What GOOD did it do? It was supposed to improve the economy. It didn't.

    Debunking the claim that higher income-tax rates reduce GDP. - By Eliot Spitzer - Slate Magazine

    There is ample proof that the top tax rate has zero relationship to GDP growth. Indeed, as quoted in the article, The Yale Law Journal suggest that moderate increases on the top marginal rate have never shown to slow down the economy.

    We had remarkable growth (an average of 3.71%) when the top marginal rate was a ridiculously high 91%. During the Bush years, when the top marginal rate was lowered to 35%, we had average growth of 1.7%.

    I understand the simplistic argument that yes, lower taxes puts more money in peoples pockets. But if most people's income can't keep up with inflation, if most people's net worth decreased, if the deficit grew in realtion to GDP, what good did it really do? I'm just trying to see beyond the simplistic "more money in the pocket" thing. If your income didn't grow, and your tax cuts were minimal (which, for most working people, they were about 2.3%), what good did it do you?

  10. #140
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    Re: Dem vs Rep Tax Cut Plan in Graph form!

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    You have shown me that taking money from the rich has helped the middle class? I must have missed that post and apologize. Please re-post so that I can give you proper credit. You think TEFRA benefited the middle class? Please explain how
    Sure thing,(puts on winger thought cap )… this should be right in your wheelhouse, it takes only a tiny bit of winger logic to justify, which you have in abundance. “ERTA”, gippers tax cut was signed in August of 1981, zoom went the unemployment rate for the following 15 months, it peaked at around 10 percent. So what did the gippper do to correct his mess?

    Why he did the right thing, (an extremely rare occurrence for his presidency) he raised taxes, the largest tax increase up to that time in the nations history. “TEFRA”was signed in September of 1992; unemployment started dropping almost immediately. Any time the unemployment drops it helps not only the middleclass, it also helps America.

    In this case it only slowed the gippers assault on the middleclass. Alas, it was only a brief pause in the winger’s relentless war on the middleclass, which we are witnesses to now.
    The haggardness of poverty is everywhere seen contrasted with the sleekness of wealth, the exhorted labor of some compensating for the idleness of others, wretched hovels by the side of stately colonnades, the rags of indigence blended with the ensigns of opulence; in a word, the most useless profusion in the midst of the most urgent wants.Jean-Baptiste Say

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