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Reagan Insider on how the GOP, and Dems Destroyed the U.S. Economy

Objective Voice said:
The linked article in the OP speaks of the exact issues I've discussed with my friends, neighbors, family and coworkers since before the 2008 Presidential primaries began. Tax cuts, for example, may stimulate the economy but they don't pay for themselves - never have and never will - and they should never be allowed to remain in place for so long across the economic spectrum particularly when one side of the tax bracket receives a much larger break than another for as long as they've been allowed and used as a replacement for the overall tax base. Those who believe in this form of "taxation" would have one believe that as long as people are working the government will generate revenue. While this may be true to an extent, the problem is that the so-called revenue is being spent faster than it can be generated. And while Republican are saying "the deficit is out of control," which one of them is willing to cut any portion of the social or government programs they claim are increasing the national debt at such historic levels?
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You are correct tax breaks will never pay for themselves and do not stimulate job growth either.
The following graphs show the failure of supply side economics. Which GHWB dubbed Voodoo economics when he was fighting for the nomination against Reagan.

supplyside.jpg
 
pbrauer said:
You are correct tax breaks will never pay for themselves and do not stimulate job growth either.
The following graphs show the failure of supply side economics. Which GHWB dubbed Voodoo economics when he was fighting for the nomination against Reagan.

supplyside.jpg
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Using this logic, which I have no problem with. Why not abolish ALL of the Bush tax cuts and save 2 trillion we don't have.
 
washunut said:
Using this logic, which I have no problem with. Why not abolish ALL of the Bush tax cuts and save 2 trillion we don't have.
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Couple reasons. First of all, Conservatives are correct in that raising taxes during a recession is not a good idea. Trying to balance the budget (specifically in 1937) probably extended the Great Depression longer than it should have been. Spending is the fuel that runs the economy and money paying down debt is money NOT being spent (the reason we went with smaller tax cuts this time instead of $600 checks like last time). So maybe abolishing them all may be a good idea, but just not NOW.

Second, there's question on whether or not adding additonal taxes, or taking away existing taxes have the same effect. Mathematically, sure, but humans don't always act as mathematical models would suggest.

Three, politics (I know, big surprise, huh?). It's easy to raise taxes on a small amount of rich people that weren't going to vote for you anyway than raise taxes on the entire population that will. In fact it's even POPULAR!

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE62S44B20100329?feedType=RSS&feedName=domesticNews said:
The Quinnipiac University poll found that 60 percent of Americans among both major political parties think raising income taxes on households making more than $250,000 should be a main tenet of the government's efforts to tame the deficit. More than 70 percent, including a majority of Republicans, say those making more than $1 million should pay more.

But 80 percent say raising taxes on those making less than that should not be part of the government's approach. Moreover, most oppose touching Medicare and Social Security - two long-term drivers of the budget deficit over the coming decades.
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Funny.. this so called Reagan insider forgot something... Reagan started the problem....
 
Harshaw said:
:roll: Where do you get that idea?
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The topic is Republicans’ lack of fiscal conservativism. You said liberals will always complain that republicans/conservatives fall short of yesterday’s standards. I said I hoped we wouldn’t, but I feared that we will would. You said my fears would be so, that liberals would always have reason to think modern conservatives suck compared to yesterday’s.



Is it wrong for me to desire a conservative party that is staunchly fiscal conservative and willing to rein in liberal excess? I lament how Republicans have gone from fiscal conservative/social conservative to fiscal liberal/social conservative. Without a party diametrically opposed to the Democrats fiscal liberal/social liberal views, we’ve lost equilibrium and have drifted into massive, unsustainable debt. The entire process has accomplished very little aside from letting the special interests of both parties glut themselves on our future prosperity, and the future is incipient.
 
Cyberhwk said:
Couple reasons. First of all, Conservatives are correct in that raising taxes during a recession is not a good idea. Trying to balance the budget (specifically in 1937) probably extended the Great Depression longer than it should have been. Spending is the fuel that runs the economy and money paying down debt is money NOT being spent (the reason we went with smaller tax cuts this time instead of $600 checks like last time). So maybe abolishing them all may be a good idea, but just not NOW.

Second, there's question on whether or not adding additonal taxes, or taking away existing taxes have the same effect. Mathematically, sure, but humans don't always act as mathematical models would suggest.

Three, politics (I know, big surprise, huh?). It's easy to raise taxes on a small amount of rich people that weren't going to vote for you anyway than raise taxes on the entire population that will. In fact it's even POPULAR!
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So you agree that it is a bad idea to raise taxes, if they are not yours. Remember no one talked about balancing the budget this is less than 25% of the deficit.

I thought we were out of the recession, but let's say we are not. Then I guess what yo would recommend is to hold off on changing this tax cut for 2-3 years.

Lastly, not that partisans care but the top 5% of earners make up 30% of consmer spending. So I guess let's not have good economic policy get in the way of more cheap politics.
 
washunut said:
So you agree that it is a bad idea to raise taxes, if they are not yours. Remember no one talked about balancing the budget this is less than 25% of the deficit.

I thought we were out of the recession, but let's say we are not. Then I guess what yo would recommend is to hold off on changing this tax cut for 2-3 years.

Lastly, not that partisans care but the top 5% of earners make up 30% of consmer spending. So I guess let's not have good economic policy get in the way of more cheap politics.
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It really gets frustrating arguing with people about the value of keeping more of what they earn which leads me to believe I am arguing with people included in the group that doesn't pay any income taxes. There is no logic by anyone who pays taxes to support raising their taxes especially when the waste, fraud, and abuse of our taxdollars is prevalent at the Federal level.
 
Conservative said:
It really gets frustrating arguing with people about the value of keeping more of what they earn which leads me to believe I am arguing with people included in the group that doesn't pay any income taxes. There is no logic by anyone who pays taxes to support raising their taxes especially when the waste, fraud, and abuse of our taxdollars is prevalent at the Federal level.
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I pay materially more in taxes than the average American earns. That being said, the country is in a mess. We can't get out of it with spending cuts alone. So like it or not taxes of some sort have to rise. I am frustrated when people use the line of waste, fraud and abuse. Yes that exists. It has existed for decades. So I say get this budget close to balance and if you find a way to get more cost out of the budget lower taxes. But stop spending my son's money becuse this generation wants to live beyond it's means.
 
washunut said:
I pay materially more in taxes than the average American earns. That being said, the country is in a mess. We can't get out of it with spending cuts alone. So like it or not taxes of some sort have to rise. I am frustrated when people use the line of waste, fraud and abuse. Yes that exists. It has existed for decades. So I say get this budget close to balance and if you find a way to get more cost out of the budget lower taxes. But stop spending my son's money becuse this generation wants to live beyond it's means.
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You know, I have no interest in sending more money to D.C. until they get their act together and show some fiscal responsibility. All that social engineering plays the "feelings" of the public and totally ignores the role of personal responsibility in people's lives. The intent of our Founders was never to be a "parent" to the American people and that is what liberalism has become. We have spent trillions to eradicate poverty, drugs, etc. and what do we have to show for it. It has been all wasted, costing more than intended, doing less than intended, and never solving a problem. Most of it is waste, fraud, and abuse.

Anyone that promotes sending more money in this environment is a fool.
 
Conservative said:
You know, I have no interest in sending more money to D.C. until they get their act together and show some fiscal responsibility. All that social engineering plays the "feelings" of the public and totally ignores the role of personal responsibility in people's lives. The intent of our Founders was never to be a "parent" to the American people and that is what liberalism has become. We have spent trillions to eradicate poverty, drugs, etc. and what do we have to show for it. It has been all wasted, costing more than intended, doing less than intended, and never solving a problem. Most of it is waste, fraud, and abuse.

Anyone that promotes sending more money in this environment is a fool.
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I promote paying by bills. This country elected the knuckleheads running the government and pissing our money away. That being the case the country has to pay the tab. Who do you think shold pay the bill of this government? Why do you think it is moral to spend a lot of money then say send the bills to my kids, who did not spend the money.

People get the government they deserve. They voted these people in, now they have to pay for their actions.
 
washunut said:
I promote paying by bills. This country elected the knuckleheads running the government and pissing our money away. That being the case the country has to pay the tab. Who do you think shold pay the bill of this government? Why do you think it is moral to spend a lot of money then say send the bills to my kids, who did not spend the money.

People get the government they deserve. They voted these people in, now they have to pay for their actions.
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there is some value to what you say but the govt. has to make the first step, show some fiscal responsibility then I have no problem helping out but to send taxdollars to D.C. and to these "knuckleheads" is totally irresponsible to the taxpayer. Stop the damn spending and if not declare bankruptcy and start over. This is BS! Think they are going to change without a taxpayer revolt? Anyone supporting tax increases to this govt. simply is either a govt. employee or totally out of touch with reality.
 
Conservative said:
It really gets frustrating arguing with people about the value of keeping more of what they earn which leads me to believe I am arguing with people included in the group that doesn't pay any income taxes. There is no logic by anyone who pays taxes to support raising their taxes especially when the waste, fraud, and abuse of our taxdollars is prevalent at the Federal level.
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The problem with giving govt less money to spend is that they just spend more money anyway.....
Until we force the federal level to operate on balanced budgets, we are doomed to increase national debt..
 
UtahBill said:
The problem with giving govt less money to spend is that they just spend more money anyway.....
Until we force the federal level to operate on balanced budgets, we are doomed to increase national debt..
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Exactly, but the problem remains, 16 million unemployed people and the way to get them back to work is not through tax increases.
 
pbrauer said:
You are correct tax breaks will never pay for themselves and do not stimulate job growth either.
The following graphs show the failure of supply side economics. Which GHWB dubbed Voodoo economics when he was fighting for the nomination against Reagan.

supplyside.jpg
Click to expand...
Those graphs only show that Clinton was lucky to take over the reigns at a time of strong growth.
 
Conservative said:
Exactly, but the problem remains, 16 million unemployed people and the way to get them back to work is not through tax increases.
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So what you're saying is.

Decrease the deficit! - But don't try and raise revenue to pay for it!

Get everyone hired Obama - But don't use public money to do it, even if private enterprise won't hire, but I'll still blame you for it anyway.
 
Jetboogieman said:
So what you're saying is.

Decrease the deficit! - But don't try and raise revenue to pay for it!

Get everyone hired Obama - But don't use public money to do it, even if private enterprise won't hire, but I'll still blame you for it anyway.
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So tell me how much revenue the govt. is getting from 16 million unemployed Americans? Apparently you don't understand even your own behavior. When you get more take home pay what do you do with it? Public money to create hiring means expanding the size of govt. and that is an expense to the taxpayers.

Interesting how so many believe raising taxes means more govt. revenue which flies in the face of normal human behavior. I cannot seem to get you or anyone else to address that.
 
Conservative said:
Exactly, but the problem remains, 16 million unemployed people and the way to get them back to work is not through tax increases.
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There are many unemployed and that will not change for quite a while. We were consuming much more than we could afford and that eventually caught up with the public. How many of the unemployed are in the construction and related fields. That will not come back until we burn off excess capacity. We used to sell 16 million cars in the U.S. We will not reach that level for a long time as banks will no longer give loans to people who can't pay them back.

The economy has to reset. The government is prolonging this thing by not letting housing etc find it's real bottom. Seems like a mess.
 
Conservative said:
So tell me how much revenue the govt. is getting from 16 million unemployed Americans? Apparently you don't understand even your own behavior. When you get more take home pay what do you do with it? Public money to create hiring means expanding the size of govt. and that is an expense to the taxpayers.
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So you didn't address the issue?

If private enterprise simply will not hire. Then how can you possibly blame Obama for it? You don't want him to intervene in things when it suits you. And I think you vastly understimate just how ****ED we are. We're in the dwang big time and if a second reccession rolls around, it'll be every presidents fault, not just his.

Interesting how so many believe raising taxes means more govt. revenue which flies in the face of normal human behavior. I cannot seem to get you or anyone else to address that.
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Tax increases must be met with spending decreased. Common sense 101.
 
washunut said:
There are many unemployed and that will not change for quite a while. We were consuming much more than we could afford and that eventually caught up with the public. How many of the unemployed are in the construction and related fields. That will not come back until we burn off excess capacity. We used to sell 16 million cars in the U.S. We will not reach that level for a long time as banks will no longer give loans to people who can't pay them back.

The economy has to reset. The government is prolonging this thing by not letting housing etc find it's real bottom. Seems like a mess.
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It is a mess and our over meddling govt. isn't making it any better
 
Jetboogieman;1058923252]So you didn't address the issue?

If private enterprise simply will not hire. Then how can you possibly blame Obama for it? You don't want him to intervene in things when it suits you. And I think you vastly understimate just how ****ED we are. We're in the dwang big time and if a second reccession rolls around, it'll be every presidents fault, not just his.
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It is called human behavior thus I see no common sense in your statement, if you invested your hard earned money into a venture would you hire not knowing what your expenses are going to be tomorrow? Obamacare, expiration of tax cuts, cap and trade, etc? Why would anyone hire an employee with this uncertainty? It is Obama's fault because he isn't providing any leadership. He is however bailing out Democrat constituent groups.

Tax increases must be met with spending decreased. Common sense 101.
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Why do you want taxpayers to pay more taxes? 47% of the peopel in this country don't pay any income taxes so what you are doing is increasing taxes on those that produce and expect them to hire more employees? That is foolish and irresponsible.

Being proudly a foreigner doesn't give you a lot of credibility to tell this country what it should do.
 
Conservative said:
Being proudly a foreigner doesn't give you a lot of credibility to tell this country what it should do.
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All Western Countries face relatively the same problem. :shrug:

I wasn't telling you what to do. Merely pointing out that you often contradict yourself.

Sooner or later, you have to increase taxes to pay for deficit cutting measures, otherwise forget about it.
 
JohnWOlin said:
So no legit conservatives on this board are going to come in here and comment I guess?
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The only people that CANT see that BOTH parties and politicians are to blame for every PENNY of the debt and the destroyed economy are indeologues. OF COURSE republicans AND democrats spent way too much. Of COURSE they have completely abandoned their responsibilities. Yes...Bush signed those spending bills...as has Obama. That your party of choice spends it more to your liking doesnt change the fact that it has been destructive.

The bigger question is what do we DO about it.
 
Conservative said:
Exactly, but the problem remains, 16 million unemployed people and the way to get them back to work is not through tax increases.
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The wife and I have spent LOTS of money in the last 3 years. We are in a good situation, we have a small debt, 6 figure retirement income, and several hundred thousand bucks in an IRA, in other words, money to spend, and I bet there are many more out there who have money, but are sitting on it.
Instead of using tax dollars to stimulate the economy, why not tap the stagnant funds held by seniors? Allow us to withdraw our IRA funds and pay the same capital gains tax as Warren Buffet, 15%, if the money is to be spent in a way that encourages jobs.
More cars will be purchased, home improvements done, vacations taken, etc. and that will create jobs. There must be trillions of dollars sitting idle right now.
 
Jetboogieman said:
All Western Countries face relatively the same problem. :shrug:

I wasn't telling you what to do. Merely pointing out that you often contradict yourself.

Sooner or later, you have to increase taxes to pay for deficit cutting measures, otherwise forget about it.
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Point out when I have contradicted myself. This country's economic foundation was built on free enterprise and capitalism. We do not have the same problems as other countries. Our problem is we have an Administration that is trying to change this country into what other countries supposedly have and an administration that doesn't have a clue how free enterprise works. Increasing taxes affects human behavior. Obviously you do not understand the components of our economy but over 2/3 of it is consumer spending driven. Raising taxes takes money out of the consumer's hands and that doesn't increase govt. revenue thus doesn't pay down debt. Consumer spending creates demand for goods and services thus jobs to make those goods and services thus new taxpayer. consumer spending drives corporate profits thus higher corporate taxes. That is how you get 16 million people or a great percentage of them employed thus paying taxes. Cut taxes and cut spending, that is how you pay down the debt.
 
UtahBill said:
The wife and I have spent LOTS of money in the last 3 years. We are in a good situation, we have a small debt, 6 figure retirement income, and several hundred thousand bucks in an IRA, in other words, money to spend, and I bet there are many more out there who have money, but are sitting on it.
Instead of using tax dollars to stimulate the economy, why not tap the stagnant funds held by seniors? Allow us to withdraw our IRA funds and pay the same capital gains tax as Warren Buffet, 15%, if the money is to be spent in a way that encourages jobs.
More cars will be purchased, home improvements done, vacations taken, etc. and that will create jobs. There must be trillions of dollars sitting idle right now.
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Sounds like an incentive based approach. couldn't agree more but you need to do both, provide incentive to spend and tax cuts do that as well. Why pay even a 15% capital gains tax, why pay any capital gains at all?
 
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