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Thread: Reagan Insider on how the GOP, and Dems Destroyed the U.S. Economy

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    Re: Reagan Insider on how the GOP, and Dems Destroyed the U.S. Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Promotes individual responsibility? You do know that is what got you into the problem in the first place right? It was the lazzie-faire attitude of personal responsibility that allowed predatory lending and worse, which in turn caused the deck of cards to fall down in 2007. How did Greenspan put it... we thought the industry would police it self.. yea right!

    As for solutions.. I have stated many times on these boards, that the US needs its spending under control at all levels but that requires a political reform that no one is willing to do. Money needs to be taken out of politics, so that companies and individuals dont see the US government as a bottomless pit of money they can suck dry. Transparency and accountability at all levels is a must as well. We cant have former CEOs running government when their former companies get billions from the Government in contracts.. just one of many transparency issues.. or another classic.. a congressman that gets pork for a library in his district, that is employing his own daughter... talk about a stinker..

    When that is done, then you can start to tackle the hard things, like cutting your military down considerably.. mothballing the Marines for example, and tackling the no bid contracts to the insane prices your military pays for things.

    And then tackling the corporatism that has infected your society, by taking down big business that has been screwing the people for decades now, which has resulted in defacto monopolies and cartels. You could start with big pharma and the healthcare industry.. how about making that a competitive market for one?

    And then there is your tax code.. plugging the holes that special interest groups (usually very wealthy) have been able to punch in the tax code to avoid paying any taxes, would be a start.

    There is no simple solution, but as long as the right lives in the past and can only say no, and the left is scared of its own shadow, then nothing will ever change and that is playing right into the hands of the people who created the problems you are in now and might I say.. made a killing doing it.
    Blah, blah, blah, all I hear from you and others is that the govt. needs the money more than the American taxpayer. I reject that completely and until the govt. gets their fiscal house in order don't send them another dime to do anything other than defend this country. Plugging holes in the tax code does nothing to improve the effeciency and proper use of our money. There is indeed a simple solution but painful to politicians, CUT THE SIZE OF GOVT.

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    Re: Reagan Insider on how the GOP, and Dems Destroyed the U.S. Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    That doesn't answer the question, how did the rich getting richer hurt the poor? You seem to believe that we have a zero sum economy here where someone gets rich at the detriment of someone else.
    Because it is often like that through out history, from when we had slaves to using children in mines.

    Instead of focusing on what the rich make why don't you focus on why the poor remain poor after all that liberal social engineering.
    Hmm social engineering.. what do you exactly mean?

    Why aren't you concerned about the lack of incentive the poor have for improving their own stake in life.
    Oh I agree some what. But like it or not it is not easy for someone from south central LA or whatever ghetto to improve his or her life to the middle class, without getting some sort of help. Now this help can be education, work experience or other incentives.. but when it is easier and more profitable to be a drug runner, then why should they?

    So let's see, you keeping more of what you earn by having your take home pay go up doesn't change your behavior?
    Not if you daily hear talking heads claiming the US is going down the tubes, and unemployment is going up and the deficit is huge and Obama is a muslim.

    How does people keeping more of their money create deficits as I don't see tax cuts as a line item on the Treasury expense list.
    Hmm lets see.. Taxes pay for the stuff Government does.. you know, wages to the military, social stuff and so on. The less taxes collected, less money there is to pay for said things, so they have to borrow.. which increase the deficit.

    Spending always has and always will cause debt, not tax cuts.
    HOG wash. Tax cuts that are not financed via either spending cuts or alternative income, will increase the deficit. You should know that, Reagan and Bush were experts at it.

    Raising taxes isn't going to put 16 million people back to work or improve economic growth.
    Nope, neither is cutting taxes during the situation we have now.

    Cut taxes 20%, I support that and if you did you would see the most massive growth in the U.S. economy in history. Reagan did it, 10-10-5% cuts, and doubled GDP as well as income tax revenue, how did that happen
    He started a high level.. huge difference. Also he also raised taxes because the deficit grew out of control. As for him doubling the GDP... not exactly. In nominal unadjusted value yes, but in real terms... no. It did go up though.
    PeteEU

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    Re: Reagan Insider on how the GOP, and Dems Destroyed the U.S. Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Blah, blah, blah, all I hear from you and others is that the govt. needs the money more than the American taxpayer. I reject that completely and until the govt. gets their fiscal house in order don't send them another dime to do anything other than defend this country. Plugging holes in the tax code does nothing to improve the effeciency and proper use of our money. There is indeed a simple solution but painful to politicians, CUT THE SIZE OF GOVT.
    And you simply dont read or want to understand.

    The size of Government is the problem, but that is because your politicians from both sides of the political spectrum along with their financial backers in the corporations have grown government into the size it is today. And you wont change that if you dont change the way you do your politics and that is my point. The Republicans were in power for over a decade, and Government GREW under them for god sake, as well as the deficits... because they only have a one track mind of cutting taxes and hoping for the best.

    Let me ask you this.. would you cut military spending? A simple yes and no answer is fine.
    PeteEU

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    Re: Reagan Insider on how the GOP, and Dems Destroyed the U.S. Economy

    PeteEU;1058923518]Because it is often like that through out history, from when we had slaves to using children in mines.
    Still no answer, the rich aren't hurting the poor by being rich and in fact help the poor by creating employment opportunities because of their spending



    Hmm social engineering.. what do you exactly mean?
    Any attempt by the Federal govt. to provide social programs for the local communities, SS, Medicare, all Health and Human Services activities.


    Oh I agree some what. But like it or not it is not easy for someone from south central LA or whatever ghetto to improve his or her life to the middle class, without getting some sort of help. Now this help can be education, work experience or other incentives.. but when it is easier and more profitable to be a drug runner, then why should they?
    Ever been to Watts in LA or the 9th Ward in NO? I have and all the help in the world isn't going to get some off their asses to fend for themselves. All the handouts in the world aren't going to change their behavior. There are deadbeats in this country and blaming the rich doesn't address the issue. It takes tough love and liberals don't know how or don't want to do that.


    Not if you daily hear talking heads claiming the US is going down the tubes, and unemployment is going up and the deficit is huge and Obama is a muslim.
    You hear the negatives on both sides like spending in the name of compassion. How about getting some compassionate results by getting these people off the public dole. over 2 years of unemployment insurance doesn't create incentive to get a job now.

    Hmm lets see.. Taxes pay for the stuff Government does.. you know, wages to the military, social stuff and so on. The less taxes collected, less money there is to pay for said things, so they have to borrow.. which increase the deficit.
    Yep, the military is probably the only purpose of the Federal Govt. and if you did just that, paid VA Benefits, and interest on the debt the budget of the U.S. would be about a trillion dollars instead of 3.8 trillion. do that and take current revenue on taxes of about 2.6 trillion and you pay off 1.4 trillion in debt each year.



    HOG wash. Tax cuts that are not financed via either spending cuts or alternative income, will increase the deficit. You should know that, Reagan and Bush were experts at it.
    Tax cuts don't have to be financed, they aren't a govt. expense. It isn't the government's money.


    Nope, neither is cutting taxes during the situation we have now.
    Your opinion, hardly backed by anything other than how you feel



    He started a high level.. huge difference. Also he also raised taxes because the deficit grew out of control. As for him doubling the GDP... not exactly. In nominal unadjusted value yes, but in real terms... no. It did go up though.
    Raising taxes doesn't increase govt. revenue because it changes human behavior. You can deny what happened in the 80's but you cannot ignore the facts. BEA.gov gives you those facts.
    Last edited by Conservative; 08-16-10 at 01:43 PM.

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    Re: Reagan Insider on how the GOP, and Dems Destroyed the U.S. Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    How does people keeping more of their money create deficits as I don't see tax cuts as a line item on the Treasury expense list. Spending always has and always will cause debt, not tax cuts.
    In general, the government's surplus/deficit = Revenue - Expenses

    Taxes are revenue. If revenue declines even as expenses are held constant, the government's surplus declines/deficit widens. Also, given that a government's surplus/deficit is determined by both revenue and expenses, changes in either of those components has an impact on its surplus/deficit.

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    Re: Reagan Insider on how the GOP, and Dems Destroyed the U.S. Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    In general, the government's surplus/deficit = Revenue - Expenses

    Taxes are revenue. If revenue declines even as expenses are held constant, the government's surplus declines/deficit widens. Also, given that a government's surplus/deficit is determined by both revenue and expenses, changes in either of those components has an impact on its surplus/deficit.
    Govt. revenue didn't decline and that is the point.

    http://www.bea.gov/national/nipaweb/...=2010&Freq=Qtr
    Last edited by Conservative; 08-16-10 at 01:58 PM.

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    Re: Reagan Insider on how the GOP, and Dems Destroyed the U.S. Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Still no answer, the rich aren't hurting the poor by being rich and in fact help the poor by creating employment opportunities because of their spending
    Never said that the rich are hurting the poor by being rich. I stated that the disparity between rich and poor and the income inequality has grown and that is a problem in any society. It is that kind of problem that causes political instability and even revolutions in the worst cases. The top 5% have relatively benefited more from the last 30 years of economic growth than the rest of the 95% of the population and especially the poor and middle class. Now there are many reasons for this, and frankly it deserves its own thread.

    Any attempt by the Federal govt. to provide social programs for the local communities, SS, Medicare, all Health and Human Services activities.
    Or the military, police and what not.. Listen I get you are a die hard conservative, but like it or not we base our whole society on "social programs" of some sort. And like it or not, the social programs you so hate, have meant that a society like the US and European countries have been dragged out of the dark ages into some what functioning democracies. While I complain over the income inequality and the gap between rich and poor now, it was much much much worse back before we had social programs, mandatory education systems and so on and so on. Before social security, growing old was a near death sentence unless you had a large family that could take care of you.

    Ever been to Watts in LA or the 9th Ward in NO? I have and all the help in the world isn't going to get some off their asses to fend for themselves. All the handouts in the world aren't going to change their behavior. There are deadbeats in this country and blaming the rich doesn't address the issue. It takes tough love and liberals don't know how or don't want to do that.
    I aint blaming the rich for the slackers. The slackers are a whole other issue, and must be addressed with incentives and so on.. not cutting them off cold turkey. We can discuss this in another thread, I would wager on the basics we would be in agreement.. maybe not the methods but that is always a discussion issue

    You hear the negatives on both sides like spending in the name of compassion. How about getting some compassionate results by getting these people off the public dole. over 2 years of unemployment insurance doesn't create incentive to get a job now.
    Are you seriously saying that the people on the public dole is the main problem of the US? That these "slackers" are the reason the US is in mega debt and have a huge deficit? Are senior citizens slackers? How about the military, they are after all public employees too?

    Yep, the military is probably the only purpose of the Federal Govt. and if you did just that, paid VA Benefits, and interest on the debt the budget of the U.S. would be about a trillion dollars instead of 3.8 trillion. do that and take current revenue on taxes of about 2.6 trillion and you pay off 1.4 trillion in debt each year.
    Ahh a true conservative, living in the past. Sorry but we have evolved past the society that did not give women the vote and accepted slavery. To run a true society, Government needs to be funded fully and do certain things, like Police, military, education for all.. anything that benefits the society as a whole. Now we might not agree to what extent the US federal system should extend, but it is more than "just" the military. Your whole society would collapse if you gave up the other things cold turkey, which is what I suspect you are advocating for. Not to mention many of the federal things would needed to be taken over by states, who then had to raise taxes... and it would create a country of have and have nots..

    Tax cuts don't have to be financed, they aren't a govt. expense. It isn't the government's money.
    boy you live in a dream world.... of course tax cuts have to be financed. Either you find alternative funding or cut spending.. you cant just cut your income without having to deal with the deficit that is created.. It is people like you and these bonehead Reagan right wing neo con theories that put you in the hole that you are in now. You cant just stop getting an income and live off credit cards for god sake.. at some point the credit will dry up and then you would be up a creek without a paddle.

    Your opinion, hardly backed by anything other than how you feel
    In Denmark we have high taxes, but we are also a nation of pessimists and were badly hurt during the 1970s oil crisis. That means we save a lot, and never trust the government or even think positive of the future. In the 1990s the Government (a liberal-conservative one... liberal as in the true meaning of the word), decided to cut taxes to create more growth. We had just come out of a mini recession, and people were still very pessimistic and had memories of the 1970s. They took the tax cut, and paid off debt or saved up. The tax cut had almost no impact on growth. It took another tax cut to get anything what so ever. A conservative-liberal government found out the hard way then, that cutting taxes was not the magic solution they had been told by their American counterparts.

    And that is what I see in the US now days.. a bunch of people who are not exactly positive, who have received a kick to the groin like the Danes in the 1970s and are hurting financially at all levels. A tax cut wont make them suddenly think that all their problems are going away and make them go spending nuts... no they will most likely either save up or pay down debt. And since your taxes are already some of the lowest in the industrialized world and you have one of the biggest budgets, then any economics 101 class would tell you that this would not be a good idea.

    Raising taxes doesn't increase govt. revenue because it changes human behavior. You can deny what happened in the 80's but you cannot ignore the facts. BEA.gov gives you those facts.
    I am not ignoring any facts, since you have not provided any. But let me then.

    Reagan and revenue - Paul Krugman Blog - NYTimes.com

    Explains it pretty well. Plus lets not forget Reagan also raised taxes..

    Reagan's Tax Increases | Capital Gains and Games

    Over all he cut taxes more than he raised, but not by as much as many think.

    Listen I am normally against Tax increases, however in the situation the US is in at the moment with its budget.. then I cant see any alternative. The same goes for the UK, Spain, Greece, Ireland and Portugal. Tax raising and spending cuts are needed to get the state economy under control. Now I would personally wait till there is more private sector growth, but the speculators in the markets want to make a quick buck these days so as we saw in Greece's case, they can easily press countries into drastic spending cuts and tax increases that cause a new recession.
    PeteEU

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    Re: Reagan Insider on how the GOP, and Dems Destroyed the U.S. Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Govt. revenue didn't decline and that is the point.

    U.S. Department of Commerce. Bureau of Economic Analysis
    Err... is that in real terms, nominal? Kinda key distinction imo.
    Last edited by PeteEU; 08-16-10 at 03:31 PM.
    PeteEU

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    Re: Reagan Insider on how the GOP, and Dems Destroyed the U.S. Economy

    PeteEU;1058923847]Never said that the rich are hurting the poor by being rich. I stated that the disparity between rich and poor and the income inequality has grown and that is a problem in any society. It is that kind of problem that causes political instability and even revolutions in the worst cases. The top 5% have relatively benefited more from the last 30 years of economic growth than the rest of the 95% of the population and especially the poor and middle class. Now there are many reasons for this, and frankly it deserves its own thread.
    So what? My point was the rich aren't causing that disparity and promoting class envy isn't the answer.


    Or the military, police and what not.. Listen I get you are a die hard conservative, but like it or not we base our whole society on "social programs" of some sort. And like it or not, the social programs you so hate, have meant that a society like the US and European countries have been dragged out of the dark ages into some what functioning democracies. While I complain over the income inequality and the gap between rich and poor now, it was much much much worse back before we had social programs, mandatory education systems and so on and so on. Before social security, growing old was a near death sentence unless you had a large family that could take care of you.
    The military and police are not social programs, welfare is social and has no business at the Federal level. Welfare is a local and charity issue and that is where it belongs, the local level.


    I aint blaming the rich for the slackers. The slackers are a whole other issue, and must be addressed with incentives and so on.. not cutting them off cold turkey. We can discuss this in another thread, I would wager on the basics we would be in agreement.. maybe not the methods but that is always a discussion issue
    A hand up vs. a hand out is the key.Giving someone over 2 years unemployment insurance is a joke and a hand out.



    Are you seriously saying that the people on the public dole is the main problem of the US? That these "slackers" are the reason the US is in mega debt and have a huge deficit? Are senior citizens slackers? How about the military, they are after all public employees too?
    It is A problem in this country that isn't being solved by continued transfer of payments from the taxpayer to those who pay no taxes. There is no question that most of the debt in this country is due to social engineering i.e. Great Society, etc.


    Ahh a true conservative, living in the past. Sorry but we have evolved past the society that did not give women the vote and accepted slavery. To run a true society, Government needs to be funded fully and do certain things, like Police, military, education for all.. anything that benefits the society as a whole. Now we might not agree to what extent the US federal system should extend, but it is more than "just" the military. Your whole society would collapse if you gave up the other things cold turkey, which is what I suspect you are advocating for. Not to mention many of the federal things would needed to be taken over by states, who then had to raise taxes... and it would create a country of have and have nots..
    Projection isn't very becoming on you. As stated, police, military isn't social spending, police is a local expense as is education, why are bureaucrats in D.C. involved in local issues



    boy you live in a dream world.... of course tax cuts have to be financed. Either you find alternative funding or cut spending.. you cant just cut your income without having to deal with the deficit that is created.. It is people like you and these bonehead Reagan right wing neo con theories that put you in the hole that you are in now. You cant just stop getting an income and live off credit cards for god sake.. at some point the credit will dry up and then you would be up a creek without a paddle.
    Yep, lived in that dream world for 63 years, how long have you been here? Tax cuts never have to be financed unless you can show me an expense item in the budget for tax cuts. Is your paycheck an expense for you? Live within your means, cut expenses if you don't have enough money, that is what you are forced to do. Calling Reagan a bonehead doesn't advance your argument but it does make you look like a loon. I love how people like you never complain about anything other than the military when it is the military that our Founders thought was the most important responsibility for the Federal govt. Notice how Promote the General welfare has not been changed to provide for the general welfare by politicians where as Provide for the Common Defense is ignored?

    In Denmark we have high taxes, but we are also a nation of pessimists and were badly hurt during the 1970s oil crisis. That means we save a lot, and never trust the government or even think positive of the future. In the 1990s the Government (a liberal-conservative one... liberal as in the true meaning of the word), decided to cut taxes to create more growth. We had just come out of a mini recession, and people were still very pessimistic and had memories of the 1970s. They took the tax cut, and paid off debt or saved up. The tax cut had almost no impact on growth. It took another tax cut to get anything what so ever. A conservative-liberal government found out the hard way then, that cutting taxes was not the magic solution they had been told by their American counterparts.
    I will take the U.S. Economy and opportunities for individual wealth creation over anything you have in Denmark. I find it condescending for someone from Denmark to tell people here what is best for them. The People of Denmark don't have a clue as tot he components of our GDP and how to create economic growth. Tax increases are not going to create employment.

    And that is what I see in the US now days.. a bunch of people who are not exactly positive, who have received a kick to the groin like the Danes in the 1970s and are hurting financially at all levels. A tax cut wont make them suddenly think that all their problems are going away and make them go spending nuts... no they will most likely either save up or pay down debt. And since your taxes are already some of the lowest in the industrialized world and you have one of the biggest budgets, then any economics 101 class would tell you that this would not be a good idea.
    You got us all wrong, it is liberals that want to spread their misery equally to everyone else. Until this govt. stops spending there is no justification to send more money to D.C. as it will be spent.

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    Re: Reagan Insider on how the GOP, and Dems Destroyed the U.S. Economy

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Err... is that in real terms, nominal? Kinda key distinction imo.
    In dollars, real or nominal or not, makes no difference, Reagan cut income taxes 10-10-5 over three years and income tax revenue went up. How did that happen.

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