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Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

I have plenty of reason!

Well let us see your "reasoning"...

First you used an appeal to tradition fallacy arguing that it is right to impose a definition of marriage that does not include same sex couples because it is tradition to do so.

Then you used an appeal to the majority fallacy to argue that it is right to impose a definition of marriage that does no include same sex couples because the majority in several states have done so. You kinda forgot to explain why Constitutional rights should be up for a vote to begin with, but I'm sure you are getting to that point.

Then you used a straw man to argue that anyone who supports a definition of marriage that includes same sex couples must also accept a definition of marriage that includes pedophilia.

I think you are just angry this issue was taken to court where real rational and evidence is needed to make a case. You cannot make a good case, so you have to use these fallacies and emotional appeals to justify imposing your view on others.
 
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Dan... you sound a bit more like a Goldwater conservative. In today's world, that would be closer to the libertarian position, wouldn't it?

I think the newly defined "conservatives," of today, most likely would consider a Goldwater conservative, in it purest form, a tree-hugging liberal.

But that's ONLY if the masses accept their claim they (present day "conservatives") are, in fact, conservatives. I, for one, do not. I have long held the opinion that they (new day conservatives) have hijacked the label and aren't much more than gypsies in the palace.

I consider Dana to be a conservative as conservatism was supposed be. Back when it was honorable.
 
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I really don't see how you're going to get "tree-hugging liberal" out of Goldwater. You could only do that if you don't know anything about political philosophy, and that would be from being a dumbass, not from being any "new" kind of conservative. Dumbass knows no political movement.
 
I really don't see how you're going to get "tree-hugging liberal" out of Goldwater. You could only do that if you don't know anything about political philosophy, and that would be from being a dumbass, not from being any "new" kind of conservative. Dumbass knows no political movement.

Just an excuse to attack "Conservatives" that have zero desire to make nice with liberals.
 
I think the issue lies in the stupidity of calling things like 'having a family' a 'value'. Values to me are 'integrity', 'honor', 'responsibility'. Having a traditional family is not a value anymore than owning a car is. It's a tradition. Something most people today are choosing to avoid for whatever reason. I'm not going to raise my kid to believe she has to have a family just like mine. I'm going to teach her to treat whatever she has the way I've treated mine in terms of providing for them, taking care of them when they need anything. Having a husband and two bratty kids? Far down the list on 'values' I want her to have.
 
One plank, they'll never pass it for crying out loud.

I guess that means when a real conservative says they are 110% against something and ready to take to the streets to fight it, they actually mean they are going to minimize it and hope it goes away.
 
The two of you, also sound more like libertarians. I was never a fan of Goldwater. Would you say that your views are similar to his?

I'm not a libertarian. Libertarians tend to have a more national outlook than conservatives do (which is why Goldwater wasn't really a libertarian).

I actually feel that the gay marriage issue should be left to the states to decide. When I argue in favor of allowing gay marriage to be recognized, its because these socially conservative positions do more to hamper state's-rights conservatism than they benefit it. To me, it is a case of shooting oneself in the foot.

Tragically for the state's-rights movement, it has continuously been usurped by those who would seek to hold others down. Jim Crow, slavery, anti-civil rights, anti-gay marriage, etc. It has given the State's-rights agenda a bad name, and it has always been in the name of "tradition" or "values" something similar.


At some point, the philosophical underpinnings of the movement shifted away from smaller, more localized forms of governance to being about these particular issues. It became a farce of itself when somewhere, someone decided that in order to be conservative one must: consider global warming to be fake, support strict immigration laws, promote guns, love God, support interventionist wars, support the war on drugs, actively oppose same-sex marriages, desire tax breaks for the wealthy, say the pledge with a tear in your eye (just ignore the fact that it was written by a socialist), etc.

Once this became the overarching "agenda" of conservatism, it lost most of it's roots in dual-federalism and has enmeshed itself in the cooperative federalism of the New Deal, creating the current neo-federalism we see espoused by conservatives today. This neo-federalism calls for some return to the dual-federalism of the past, but this return is only a fraction of what was extant in the past under a true dual-federalist society. It cherry picks from both systems. I disagree with it being done this way.

I'm far closer to the dual-federalism perspective than the average modern conservative is (although the modern understanding of federalism is so hindered by the Hamiltonian Federalist party that I call myself an anti-federalist in part to avoid Hamiltonian associations, and in part because I am like the anti-federalists in that I believe that the constitution gave too much power to the federal government).

Now, that doesn't mean I'm universally for small government or for semi-unlimited personal freedom (like a modern libertarian would be). I believe in the value of government intervention, I just disagree with the scale at which it occurs. I'd prefer it if the State and local governments held primacy over the federal government in most cases. I believe there are certain issues which absolutely necessitate federal primacy (such as common defense, inter-state commerce, foreign affairs, etc) but on the vast majority of issues, the State's should hold sway.

One thing I would add to the constitution is a prohibition upon the states preventing inferior treatment of minorities.
 
I actually feel that the gay marriage issue should be left to the states to decide.

I agree states should regulate marriage, but not in any way that violates the Federal Constitution. I think clearly any state law or state constitutional amendment which imposes on me a definition of marriage that does not include same sex unions is a violation of my Constitutional rights.

One thing I would add to the constitution is a prohibition upon the states preventing inferior treatment of minorities.

It already exists. It's called the Equal Protection Clause.
 
It already exists. It's called the Equal Protection Clause.

One can get around that wording with regards to sexual orientation. Equal protection can be used effectively to subjugate certain groups if only people within that group engage in a certain behavior.
 
I agree states should regulate marriage, but not in any way that violates the Federal Constitution. I think clearly any state law or state constitutional amendment which imposes on me a definition of marriage that does not include same sex unions is a violation of my Constitutional rights.

That is why back in 2000 the Republican party was pushing the Federal Marriage Amendment. So that it would be Constitutional to discriminate against gays.
 
That is why back in 2000 the Republican party was pushing the Federal Marriage Amendment. So that it would be Constitutional to discriminate against gays.

Perhaps some day they will succeed. It won't be the first time that discrimination has been written into the US Constitution.
 
Perhaps some day they will succeed. It won't be the first time that discrimination has been written into the US Constitution.

Won't happen. Actually, the odds of THIS happening to any given person on the planet are much better:

Nd8uX.jpg
 
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I should save that picture to remind myself that things can always get more crappy. I can't complain about my life as long as it isn't raining spears of urine.
 
I guess that means when a real conservative says they are 110% against something and ready to take to the streets to fight it, they actually mean they are going to minimize it and hope it goes away.

No it means I'll ignore a pointless resolution, or are you trying to suggest that if I have one issue I am against with the GOP I shouldn't vote?

Seriously, do you read what you write or jsut type mindlessly?
 
Seriously, do you read what you write or jsut type mindlessly?

Funny, I was wondering the same thing about you.

Any who, I'm still waiting to hear why you feel you have a legitimate reason to violate my Constitutional rights by imposing on me a definition of marriage that does not include same sex couples. Is it a conservative value nowadays to impose views on others that violates their Constitutional rights?

I'm curious. Is it a conservative value nowadays that a majority vote in a state or a perceived tradition are justifications for throwing out Constitutional rights? What other Constitutional rights of mine are null and void if put to a vote by a majority in a state? What other Constitutional rights of mine are null and void because they contradict your views on tradition?
 
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Funny, I was wondering the same thing about you.

Any who, I'm still waiting to hear why you feel you have a legitimate reason to violate my Constitutional rights by imposing on me a definition of marriage that does not include same sex couples. Is it a conservative value nowadays to impose views on others that violates their Constitutional rights?

I'm curious. Is it a conservative value nowadays that a majority vote in a state or a perceived tradition are justifications for throwing out Constitutional rights? What other Constitutional rights of mine are null and void if put to a vote by a majority in a state? What other Constitutional rights of mine are null and void because they contradict your views on tradition?

Show me where in the Constitution you have a right to Gay Marriage. You find it, I'll concede, otherwise...
 
Show me where in the Constitution you have a right to Gay Marriage. You find it, I'll concede, otherwise...

Gay marriage? I've only been talking about same sex marriage. Go back and read my posts and see if I ever used the term "gay marriage" in this thread. Nonetheless, I have no problem showing you where in the Constitution I have a right to same sex marriage.

Equal Protection Clause of the 14th amendment.

"No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

As such, as long as woman are allowed to marry men, men should be allowed to marry men. To not do so would be gender discrimination and would be unequal protection of the laws. In other words, it denies men a right that women have under the law. Furthermore, gender is a protected class under federal law.

As such, you have no grounds by which impose on me a definition of marriage that does not include same sex couples. To do so, you have to deny me a right based upon my sex and nothing else. The Equal Protection Clause of the Constitution guarantees that I cannot be denied rights afforded to others based on my sex.

I'll accept your concession now.
 
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Gay marriage? I've only been talking about same sex marriage. Go back and read my posts and see if I ever used the term "gay marriage" in this thread. Nonetheless, I have no problem showing you where in the Constitution I have a right to same sex marriage.

Equal Protection Clause of the 14th amendment.

"No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

As such, as long as woman are allowed to marry men, men should be allowed to marry men. To not do so would be gender discrimination and would be unequal protection of the laws. In other words, it denies men a right that women have under the law. Furthermore, gender is a protected class under federal law.

As such, you have no grounds by which impose on me a definition of marriage that does not include same sex couples. To do so, you have to deny me a right based upon my sex and nothing else. The Equal Protection Clause of the Constitution guarantees that I cannot be denied rights afforded to others based on my sex.

I'll accept your concession now.

The problem here is that the equal protection clause does not apply. This is an example of what I was saying in my previous post.

The laws are actually gender neutral. There is not a separate law for women and a separate one for men.

i.e. The laws are not:

A man can only marry a woman and a woman can only marry a man.

They are "Any person can only marry someone of the opposite gender"

In essence, if person Person A wants to marry Person B, then Person A and Person B must be of opposite genders.

The specific gender of person A is irrelevent to the way the laws are applied, because regardless of the gender of person A, Person B's gender must be the opposite.

Thus, every person is afforded equal treatment by law.

This is why the gender discrimination argument doesn't work. All people, regardless of gender, have the same law binding them. That difference in the wording of any such law is exactly how one bypasses the equal protection clause.
 
I really don't see how you're going to get "tree-hugging liberal" out of Goldwater. You could only do that if you don't know anything about political philosophy, and that would be from being a dumbass, not from being any "new" kind of conservative. Dumbass knows no political movement.

And the two are not the same? I know several "self-proclaimed conservatives" (such as the one that is giving you the reach-around on the "thanks" button) on this site that slam "libruls" left and right for taking the very stance on particular issues that Goldwater subscribes to. Especially Goldwater's position on government interference in matters such as gay issues as well as church involvement in government policy.

But I'll give ya the "dumbass knows no political movement." No shortage of dumbasses around. However, the "new-conservative" ones are the most obvious on blog sites such as these and your average cable propaganda channel or AM radio. Perhaps that is because the squeak the loudest. Maybe.
 
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Gay marriage? I've only been talking about same sex marriage. Go back and read my posts and see if I ever used the term "gay marriage" in this thread. Nonetheless, I have no problem showing you where in the Constitution I have a right to same sex marriage.

Equal Protection Clause of the 14th amendment.

"No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

As such, as long as woman are allowed to marry men, men should be allowed to marry men. To not do so would be gender discrimination and would be unequal protection of the laws. In other words, it denies men a right that women have under the law. Furthermore, gender is a protected class under federal law.

As such, you have no grounds by which impose on me a definition of marriage that does not include same sex couples. To do so, you have to deny me a right based upon my sex and nothing else. The Equal Protection Clause of the Constitution guarantees that I cannot be denied rights afforded to others based on my sex.

I'll accept your concession now.

Semantics is what you have now? I know you're trying to apply the ruling by the judge that struck down prop 8, but come now, really, same sex isn't gay marriage... PLEASE. Spare us the silliness.

No one is being denied the right to marry, anyone of any gender may marry. There is just a defined parameter that one gender must marry one of another gender. A simple requirement for the union to be recognized as a marriage. If you do not wish to marry one of the opposite gender then that's your choice.

BTW, do you REALLY want to go down the 14th amendment route and make this just a gender argument? What if three males wish to marry, why is it limited to only two? Discrimination!

That was too easy to debunk, you have failed sir. No concession, for your logic is fundamentally unsound.
 
Show me where in the Constitution you have a right to Gay Marriage. You find it, I'll concede, otherwise...

OK, I will see your question, and raise you the following question:

Show me where in the Constitution you have a right to sell ice cream on Sundays. You find it, I'll concede, otherwise...

Here is the fallacy in the question you just asked - You are asking to enumerate a specific right. If this is the way the Constitution were written, that document would not be able to fit in the space of the entire Smithsonian institution. Want to know what the Constitution does say about gay marriage? Here it is:

The 10th Amendment said:
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

In other words, if something is not expressly given to the Federal government, under the Constitution, then it is none of the Federal government's damn business. So let me turn your little straw man around, and ask that you show me specifically where the government prohibits same sex marriage. You find it, I'll concede. Otherwise.... The 10th Amendment applies, and it is up to the states and the people to decide.

You just keep building these straw men, and I will just keep knocking them down. :mrgreen:
 
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And the two are not the same? I know several "self-proclaimed conservatives" (such as the one that is giving you the reach-around on the "thanks" button) on this site that slam "libruls" left and right for taking the very stance on particular issues that Goldwater subscribes to. Especially Goldwater's position on government interference in matters such as gay issues as well as church involvement in government policy.

But I'll give ya the "dumbass knows no political movement." No shortage of dumbasses around. However, the "new-conservative" ones are the most obvious on blog sites such as these and your average cable propaganda channel or AM radio. Perhaps that is because the squeak the loudest. Maybe.

You didn't really disagree with me.
 
In other words, if something is not expressly given to the Federal government, under the Constitution, then it is none of the Federal government's damn business. So let me turn your little straw man around, and ask that you show me specifically where the government prohibits same sex marriage. You find it, I'll concede. Otherwise.... The 10th Amendment applies, and it is up to the states and the people to decide.

You just keep building these straw men, and I will just keep knocking them down. :mrgreen:

I think that MrVicchio agrees that it should be left to the states and the people. I can't be certain about this, but I don't believe he is in favor of a federal ban on SSM.
 
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