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Thread: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    I think the issue lies in the stupidity of calling things like 'having a family' a 'value'. Values to me are 'integrity', 'honor', 'responsibility'. Having a traditional family is not a value anymore than owning a car is. It's a tradition. Something most people today are choosing to avoid for whatever reason. I'm not going to raise my kid to believe she has to have a family just like mine. I'm going to teach her to treat whatever she has the way I've treated mine in terms of providing for them, taking care of them when they need anything. Having a husband and two bratty kids? Far down the list on 'values' I want her to have.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    One plank, they'll never pass it for crying out loud.
    I guess that means when a real conservative says they are 110% against something and ready to take to the streets to fight it, they actually mean they are going to minimize it and hope it goes away.

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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    The two of you, also sound more like libertarians. I was never a fan of Goldwater. Would you say that your views are similar to his?
    I'm not a libertarian. Libertarians tend to have a more national outlook than conservatives do (which is why Goldwater wasn't really a libertarian).

    I actually feel that the gay marriage issue should be left to the states to decide. When I argue in favor of allowing gay marriage to be recognized, its because these socially conservative positions do more to hamper state's-rights conservatism than they benefit it. To me, it is a case of shooting oneself in the foot.

    Tragically for the state's-rights movement, it has continuously been usurped by those who would seek to hold others down. Jim Crow, slavery, anti-civil rights, anti-gay marriage, etc. It has given the State's-rights agenda a bad name, and it has always been in the name of "tradition" or "values" something similar.


    At some point, the philosophical underpinnings of the movement shifted away from smaller, more localized forms of governance to being about these particular issues. It became a farce of itself when somewhere, someone decided that in order to be conservative one must: consider global warming to be fake, support strict immigration laws, promote guns, love God, support interventionist wars, support the war on drugs, actively oppose same-sex marriages, desire tax breaks for the wealthy, say the pledge with a tear in your eye (just ignore the fact that it was written by a socialist), etc.

    Once this became the overarching "agenda" of conservatism, it lost most of it's roots in dual-federalism and has enmeshed itself in the cooperative federalism of the New Deal, creating the current neo-federalism we see espoused by conservatives today. This neo-federalism calls for some return to the dual-federalism of the past, but this return is only a fraction of what was extant in the past under a true dual-federalist society. It cherry picks from both systems. I disagree with it being done this way.

    I'm far closer to the dual-federalism perspective than the average modern conservative is (although the modern understanding of federalism is so hindered by the Hamiltonian Federalist party that I call myself an anti-federalist in part to avoid Hamiltonian associations, and in part because I am like the anti-federalists in that I believe that the constitution gave too much power to the federal government).

    Now, that doesn't mean I'm universally for small government or for semi-unlimited personal freedom (like a modern libertarian would be). I believe in the value of government intervention, I just disagree with the scale at which it occurs. I'd prefer it if the State and local governments held primacy over the federal government in most cases. I believe there are certain issues which absolutely necessitate federal primacy (such as common defense, inter-state commerce, foreign affairs, etc) but on the vast majority of issues, the State's should hold sway.

    One thing I would add to the constitution is a prohibition upon the states preventing inferior treatment of minorities.
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    I actually feel that the gay marriage issue should be left to the states to decide.
    I agree states should regulate marriage, but not in any way that violates the Federal Constitution. I think clearly any state law or state constitutional amendment which imposes on me a definition of marriage that does not include same sex unions is a violation of my Constitutional rights.

    One thing I would add to the constitution is a prohibition upon the states preventing inferior treatment of minorities.
    It already exists. It's called the Equal Protection Clause.

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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    It already exists. It's called the Equal Protection Clause.
    One can get around that wording with regards to sexual orientation. Equal protection can be used effectively to subjugate certain groups if only people within that group engage in a certain behavior.
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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    I agree states should regulate marriage, but not in any way that violates the Federal Constitution. I think clearly any state law or state constitutional amendment which imposes on me a definition of marriage that does not include same sex unions is a violation of my Constitutional rights.
    That is why back in 2000 the Republican party was pushing the Federal Marriage Amendment. So that it would be Constitutional to discriminate against gays.

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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    That is why back in 2000 the Republican party was pushing the Federal Marriage Amendment. So that it would be Constitutional to discriminate against gays.
    Perhaps some day they will succeed. It won't be the first time that discrimination has been written into the US Constitution.

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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Perhaps some day they will succeed.
    I really hope not.

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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Perhaps some day they will succeed. It won't be the first time that discrimination has been written into the US Constitution.
    Won't happen. Actually, the odds of THIS happening to any given person on the planet are much better:

    Last edited by danarhea; 08-11-10 at 01:46 AM.
    The ghost of Jack Kevorkian for President's Physician: 2016

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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    I should save that picture to remind myself that things can always get more crappy. I can't complain about my life as long as it isn't raining spears of urine.

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