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Thread: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

  1. #51
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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Tradition? Roman emperors have married men. Same sex marriage has occurred in the past.

    And for the record, it was your side that was forcing a definition of marriage on everyone. You used the law to force your perceived traditionalist perspective of marriage on us. Prop 8 was designed to define marriage under law to exclude same sex couples from marrying and to imbue gender discrimination into the law. We didn't pass any laws in California saying people had to accept same sex marriage, you guys passed laws saying same sex couples couldn't be allowed to marry. You were the ones who forced a definition of marriage on us that we did not agree with.
    So has child sacrifice, marriage of 9 year olds, and the what not. Your point is rather moot. Note I pushed the bar to the birth of the USA...


    Majority of society opposes Gay Marriage.

    It's failed at EVERY BALLOT it's been tried at.

    I suppose you support NAMBLA. What, you don't?? You're forcing your views of morality on these people!!!! (we can do this all day if you want, you are on the losing side here buddy)
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  2. #52
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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    So has child sacrifice, marriage of 9 year olds, and the what not. Your point is rather moot. Note I pushed the bar to the birth of the USA...


    Majority of society opposes Gay Marriage.

    It's failed at EVERY BALLOT it's been tried at.

    I suppose you support NAMBLA. What, you don't?? You're forcing your views of morality on these people!!!! (we can do this all day if you want, you are on the losing side here buddy)
    Nice try at building a straw man. NAMBLA members abuse children, who are unable to understand consent. Gay marriage is between consenting ADULTS. DUH!!
    The ghost of Jack Kevorkian for President's Physician: 2016

  3. #53
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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    So has child sacrifice, marriage of 9 year olds, and the what not. Your point is rather moot. Note I pushed the bar to the birth of the USA...


    Majority of society opposes Gay Marriage.

    It's failed at EVERY BALLOT it's been tried at.

    I suppose you support NAMBLA. What, you don't?? You're forcing your views of morality on these people!!!! (we can do this all day if you want, you are on the losing side here buddy)
    Well let's consider the rational you are using. First off, tradition makes things right? Well I guess you can justify slavery then because it existed for hundreds of years. You could justify denying women the right to vote because that was tradition for even longer than slavery. You could probably justify segregation and bans on interracial marriage on the basis that those were fairly traditional. No. Tradition does not make things right. Just because you don't accept a definition of marriage that includes same sex couples doesn't mean that you are justified to impose your definition on us. Especially since it arguably violates our Constitutional rights.

    Now how about the rational of the majority. If a majority argues something then that makes it right? Well if that is the case, we should definitely bring back interracial marriage bans since at one time 40 states had laws prohibiting it. No, I believe you know better than that. We do not put Constitutional rights to a vote in this country. We would not put freedom of religion or the right to bear arms to a vote of the majority, so why should we allow states to imbue their Constitutions with gender discrimination and to force a definition of marriage that excludes same sex couples on others?

  4. #54
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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    Nice try at building a straw man. NAMBLA members abuse children, who are unable to understand consent. Gay marriage is between consenting ADULTS. DUH!!
    He got pissed because he knew I was right and so he was trying to use a red herring to flame bait me into arguing with him. His position is based on his emotional feelings about marriage, not on any degree of reason.

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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    Tucker, Dan...

    If someone believes something is Right, in this case Traditional Marriage being between a man and a woman; What sort of person are they if they don't stand up against those trying to CHANGE what a marriage is?
    I guess I don't see how anyone can change what marriage is.

    Like it or not, an individual marriage is defined by the people within said marriage, not by society, not by the laws.

    I could no more prevent two men from claiming that they are married than I can prevent two divorced people from claiming they are "re"married to each other.

    I instead keep my own marriage defined in the traditional sense: One man and one woman joined for life.

    If the government decided tommorow that it did not want to recognize my marriage to my wife, the fact that she and I are married would be unchanged. It would still be a lifelong bond between one man and one woman for the purposes of raising a family together.


    I have a word for those people, craven. Or unprincipled, either works to be honest. "I believe in this... but I won't stand up for it cause well... it's really none of my business..."
    I guess it depends on perspective then.

    I tend to look at things with a worldview similar to that espoused by Jonathan Swift in his satire commonly referred to as "The Battle of the Books".

    In that story, Swift describes the battle between the moderns and the classics where the moderns sought to tear down the classics in order to be considered on teh saem plane. Swift's tretise was that the moderns should instead seek to elevate themselves to teh level of the classics.

    That one achieves equal consideration by bringing oneself up to the level of greatness, instead of tearing others down to give the appearance of equality.

    Conversely, one maintains their elevated status in a similar way. Instead of seeking to hold others down to avoid being seen on a equal level, one simply continues to elevate oneself, or allows the other to reach the saem plane without any fear of losing status.

    I look at the marriage debate in the same way.

    In this case, same-sex couples are actually doing as Swift intended. They are not attacking the foundations of traditional marriage in order to tear it down. Instead they are seeking to elevate their alternative marriages to an equal plane of recognition.

    As a person who is involved in a traditional marriage, and values it greatly, I do not feel threatened by their attempts. I'm secure enough in the intrinsic value of traditional marriage so that I do not feel that their attempts threaten it in any way.

    In truth, there is nothing at all to fdight or defend, becaus ethere is nothign being done to degrade traditional marriage in this case.

    If they were actually trying to tear down traditional marriage, I would be far more inclined to fight such a change.

    But traditional marriage is a valuable enough aspect of society it is not at all threatened by non-traditional marriages.

    I don't think there is any need to defend traditional marriage because of this lack of a threat.

    Instead, I promote traditional marriage every single day through my actions. I love my wife, and I tell her that everyday and she does the same for me.

    We work through the hard times and support each other in all ways.

    Neither of us considers divorce an option, because our vows were for life.

    We are now trying to start a family together.

    So while you may think I'm not taking a stand in my beliefs, I consider the exact opposite to be true. I live the traditional marriage in every way. My stand is to preserve it and cherish it.

    Nobody is trying to change my marriage because nobody can change it.
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

  6. #56
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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    It'd be easier to take you seriously, if you didn't post like a 13 year old child trying to sound tough with big words he learned in English class last week.

    "Thugs, Punks, Pussies, Jackbootism"

    You have this UNHOLY hate towards police, and I'm sorry Chevy, but a country with no police would be far worse then the simply IMAGINARY police-state Gov't Thug ruled world you seem think exists today.

    The average Police officer, TSA worker, FBI agent are just good honest people that want to protect society and the people they love. You cast them as Nazi SS Goons, mindless thugs out to destroy all that oppose them. It's... comical reading your hate. Hell you sound like a KKK'r from the 30's only about Police instead of blacks!

    YES, there are stupid laws, is that the fault of those entrusted with enforcing them?

    YES, there are BAD COPS that screw up, make mistakes or are corrupt. Guess what, that's a side effect of this thing called "Life".

    You waste so much energy, so much emotion, so much misguided hate... that one wonders if it's just an act or do you really think this way?

    I AGREE with 90% of the things you post, but on this... you are no better then the people that call members of the Armed Forces "Baby Killers". And I cannot respect someone like that, and I bet'cha I ain't the only that holds you in such... a manner. The difference between me and some others is, I'll tell you straight up, and believe you can step away from this destructive behavior, cause you are RIGHT more often then not on a lot of things.
    <Thunderous applause.>

    Finally, MrV. You are on the right side of right. See, anyone can be right and any one can be wrong.

    You didn't do too good on the gay marriage issue and, well, pretty much got owned by all debating you, but it was interesting and honest and fun to follow. I respect how you feel even if you happen to be on the wrong side of right in that regard. That's a tough position to defend. But you fought the good fight. Can't win 'em all.
    Last edited by Captain America; 08-10-10 at 04:53 PM.

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  7. #57
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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    Nice try at building a straw man. NAMBLA members abuse children, who are unable to understand consent. Gay marriage is between consenting ADULTS. DUH!!
    Who says they abuse children? That's just your MORALITY being forced on them, you values.

    How about Polygamy Dan? Eh? You haven't answered that one, it's coming next and everyone knows it.
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    He got pissed because he knew I was right and so he was trying to use a red herring to flame bait me into arguing with him. His position is based on his emotional feelings about marriage, not on any degree of reason.
    I have plenty of reason! I was just taking ya'lls stance and running with it. I'm not blown out... after all, the President down to the average voters reject ya'lls... stance.
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain America View Post
    <Thunderous applause.>

    Finally, MrV. You are on the right side of right. See, anyone can be right and any one can be wrong.

    You didn't do too good on the gay marriage issue and, well, pretty much got owned by all debating you, but it was interesting and honest and fun to follow. I respect how you feel even if you happen to be on the wrong side of right in that regard. That's a tough position to defend. But you fought the good fight. Can't win 'em all.
    (The funniest part is, I am FOR Gay Marriage, just not right now, but no one acknowledges that)
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



  10. #60
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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    It's really not that hard CC.

    Traditional Social Values like opposing "Gay Marriage" isn't using Big Government to push a moral value. That's a fallacious logical argument started by Progressive to undermine Conservatives in the political arena.

    Look at it like this, Conservatives believe in say, traditional marriage. A group, Lib/Prog comes along and wants to CHANGE that to encompass homosexuals. This can ONLY be done by having the Gov't issue "Marriage Licences". What are Conservatives to do? NOT push to keep Gov't, the entity that issues and thus ultimately legal acknowledges the legitimacy of such unions, from doing so?

    What recourse have they? The bumper sticker logic of "You're not a real conservative cause you want Gov't in people's lives" is patently dishonest, intellectually dishonest.

    My personal view on the matter is slightly more liberal on the matter, but I both UNDERSTAND why Conservatives feel the way they do, and support their methods. I fight Gay Marriage on principles. Get the people to accept it, not the courts, not force it through that way, in the mean time many on the right would support Civil Unions. I know it's stupid, same thing, different names, but to the right, the NAME DOES MATTER. SO why can't we as a society compromise here?
    Ok... so what you are saying is there is no conflict. Since conservatives believe in traditional social values, when those values are attacked, using government to keep those values intact is NOT supporting government intrusion into an individual's lives. It supports the traditional values. Would this be correct?
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