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Thread: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    What the hell are they doing pushing Gay Marriage? They are FORCING a morality
    This is what I'm not understanding about your position, Vic. How is pushing for the ability to do something like getting married "forcing" a morality upon others?

    (and plese don't get me wrong. I'm not saying it isn't forcing a morality. I'm simply asking if you could explain what you are saying so that I may understand)
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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    This is what I'm not understanding about your position, Vic. How is pushing for the ability to do something like getting married "forcing" a morality upon others?

    (and plese don't get me wrong. I'm not saying it isn't forcing a morality. I'm simply asking if you could explain what you are saying so that I may understand)
    A very good point. If gay marriage is allowed, then those who hate it have a very simple option. Don't marry a gay (In fact, more than a few who hate gay marriage will stay in the closet - LOL). That is not about forcing a viewpoint at all, but giving people freedom to choose, and freedom to be responsible for their own actions. Damn, who was it that talked about freedom of choice and responsibility? Oh, yes, it was Ronald Reagan.
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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    This is what I'm not understanding about your position, Vic. How is pushing for the ability to do something like getting married "forcing" a morality upon others?

    (and plese don't get me wrong. I'm not saying it isn't forcing a morality. I'm simply asking if you could explain what you are saying so that I may understand)
    Tucker tucker tucker.

    Marriage, an institution that codifies a male and a female joining in Holy Matrimony. Yes, over time the State took over the issue, and codified a man and a woman joining together for legal and personal reasons and given a break in hopes they would have children.

    Now, you don't see where changing that to be a male and a male, or a female and a female as forcing everyone to accept that Marriage, no longer means or stands for what it did for literally thousands of years of human history? YES I know Polygamy is in the past, and Marriage hasn't ALWAYS been as we consider it, but it has been for the life of the USA. That's pretty serious stuff to go changing don't you think?

    I find this opinion that "well how is it forcing anything on anyone to change marriage" to be such a dishonest position. And I think it's intentionally dishonest, a naive question that seems to honest, and innocent, gee how does it hurt your marriage if two guys marry eh?? Completely ignores the purpose, tradition and reason for Marriage in favor of a political agenda. It IS forcing the country to CHANGE what it means to be married. Period. That's forcing all of us to accept something we may not agree with.
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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    Tucker tucker tucker.

    Marriage, an institution that codifies a male and a female joining in Holy Matrimony. Yes, over time the State took over the issue, and codified a man and a woman joining together for legal and personal reasons and given a break in hopes they would have children.

    Now, you don't see where changing that to be a male and a male, or a female and a female as forcing everyone to accept that Marriage, no longer means or stands for what it did for literally thousands of years of human history? YES I know Polygamy is in the past, and Marriage hasn't ALWAYS been as we consider it, but it has been for the life of the USA. That's pretty serious stuff to go changing don't you think?

    I find this opinion that "well how is it forcing anything on anyone to change marriage" to be such a dishonest position. And I think it's intentionally dishonest, a naive question that seems to honest, and innocent, gee how does it hurt your marriage if two guys marry eh?? Completely ignores the purpose, tradition and reason for Marriage in favor of a political agenda. It IS forcing the country to CHANGE what it means to be married. Period. That's forcing all of us to accept something we may not agree with.
    Very simple answer to that. It's none of your damn business.
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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    Now, you don't see where changing that to be a male and a male, or a female and a female as forcing everyone to accept that Marriage, no longer means or stands for what it did for literally thousands of years of human history?
    I don't see anyone changing it to be a male and a male or a female and a female. I see people trying to get the definition to include those unions, but I've yet to hear anyone trying to get it to be defined as those types of unions.

    I also see no way to force people to accept these marriages. I see an effort to get the government to recognize them, but people would still be free to accept them as they please.

    Perhaps that is where the disconnect is. I do not understand your position because I don't see how the government recognizing something impacts the indivdual as being "forced to accept" something.

    For example, the government recognizes second marriages that occur after the first marriage ends in divorce as "legitimate" marriages. I personally do not recognize these marriages as legitimate because the oath made at marriage is for life. If my wife were to divorce me for some reason, I would still consider my oath of marriage as binding for me. I would not get re-married as I would find this type of relationship to be illegitimate. Call it a throwback to my Irish upbringing (Divorce was illegal in Ireland until the mid 90's).

    But that's my own personal ethos. I do not expect anyone else to adhere to these rules I have contrived. Nor am I forced to accept other people's choices as legitimate.


    YES I know Polygamy is in the past, and Marriage hasn't ALWAYS been as we consider it, but it has been for the life of the USA. That's pretty serious stuff to go changing don't you think?
    Why is it serious stuff? If Ireland, which actually had to amend it's constitution to allow for legalized divorce can make that major change, why can't we make a similar change here in the US?

    Regardless of what a persons views are regarding same-sex marriages, it's pretty obvious that divorce is a far greater threat to the sanctity of marriage than SSM is.

    I find this opinion that "well how is it forcing anything on anyone to change marriage" to be such a dishonest position.
    That's a question, not an opinion. The opinion that was rendered was yours, and that opinion was that it is forcing something upon you. I was asking for an explanation of that opinion so that I could understand why you think that it forces something upon you.

    I ask because I am a prime example of someone who holds very strong opinions on what marriage is and what it should not be. Even though the government is currently recognizing marriages that are not in adherence to my own personal philosophy and morality, it clearly does not force me to accept these marriages in any way.

    And I think it's intentionally dishonest, a naive question that seems to honest, and innocent, gee how does it hurt your marriage if two guys marry eh?? Completely ignores the purpose, tradition and reason for Marriage in favor of a political agenda. It IS forcing the country to CHANGE what it means to be married. Period. That's forcing all of us to accept something we may not agree with.
    This doesn't answer my question though. It merely restates the same thing that spurred the question. How are you being forced to accept these marriages?
    Last edited by Tucker Case; 08-10-10 at 01:54 PM.
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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    Very simple answer to that. It's none of your damn business.
    It is when society that I'm a part of CHANGES.
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Tucker, Dan...

    If someone believes something is Right, in this case Traditional Marriage being between a man and a woman; What sort of person are they if they don't stand up against those trying to CHANGE what a marriage is?

    I have a word for those people, craven. Or unprincipled, either works to be honest. "I believe in this... but I won't stand up for it cause well... it's really none of my business..."

    Oh and Dan, so do you support Polygamous marriages too? .
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    That's forcing all of us to accept something we may not agree with.
    I don't agree with a definition of marriage that doesn't include same sex unions. How come you guys are justified in forcing me to accept a definition of marriage without same sex unions?

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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    I don't agree with a definition of marriage that doesn't include same sex unions. How come you guys are justified in forcing me to accept a definition without same sex unions?
    Oh, the old turn around trick! I'm SOO left without ammo here.

    "Tradition". It's been this way for over 200 years, it's hard to force something that existed as reality prior to your birth on you. Your argument would only have merit IF, IF there was no such thing, and we were discussing how to implement it.

    Nice try, thanks for playing.
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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    Oh, the old turn around trick! I'm SOO left without ammo here.

    "Tradition". It's been this way for over 200 years, it's hard to force something that existed as reality prior to your birth on you. Your argument would only have merit IF, IF there was no such thing, and we were discussing how to implement it.

    Nice try, thanks for playing.
    Tradition? Roman emperors have married men. Same sex marriage has occurred in the past.

    And for the record, it was your side that was forcing a definition of marriage on everyone. You used the law to force your perceived traditionalist perspective of marriage on us. Prop 8 was designed to define marriage under law to exclude same sex couples from marrying and to imbue gender discrimination into the law. We didn't pass any laws in California saying people had to accept same sex marriage, you guys passed laws saying same sex couples couldn't be allowed to marry. You were the ones who forced a definition of marriage on us that we did not agree with.

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