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Thread: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

  1. #181
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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    At this point, all I can say is that you should go back and read all of my posts in this thread, but this time, throw away your preconceptions about what I've been saying and read them without creating your own meaning.
    I've read your posts. You went on a rant about how the same sex marriage side does not listen to the arguments of the anti same sex marriage side. You then made the fallacious argument that "procreation" is a legitimate government interest for denying same sex couples the right to marry. The fact is that Walker laid out every argument presented by the anti same sex side in his ruling. Specifically he stated this....

    "Proponents pointed only to a difference between same sex couples (who are incapable through sexual intercourse of producing offspring biologically related to both parties) and opposite sex couples (some of whom are capable of producing such offspring.) Proponents did not, however, advance any reason why the government may use sexual orientation as a proxy for fertility or why the government may need to take into account fertility when legislating." pg 122

    In other words, you made precisely the same fallacious argument that the proponents of Prop 8 made in this case. That fertility needs to be taken under consideration with same sex couples even though fertility is not taken into consideration with opposite sex couples. No opposite sex couples are denied marriage on the basis that they are infertile, and so there is no basis to deny same sex couples the right to marry on the basis that they are infertile. That is not equal protection under the law. That is discrimination based solely sex and sexual orientation.
    Last edited by CriticalThought; 08-12-10 at 02:53 PM.

  2. #182
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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    I've read your posts. You went on a rant about how the same sex marriage side does not listen to the arguments of the anti same sex marriage side. You then made the fallacious argument that "procreation" is a legitimate government interest for denying same sex couples the right to marry. The fact is that Walker laid out every argument presented by the anti same sex side in his ruling. Specifically he stated this....
    I asked to to re-read my posts, and this time "throw away your preconceptions about what I've been saying and read them without creating your own meaning".

    That's very important for understanding. You are debating a strawman of your own creation. If you'd rather do that than have a discussion, so be it. Just let me know.

    "Proponents pointed only to a difference between same sex couples (who are incapable through sexual intercourse of producing offspring biologically related to both parties) and opposite sex couples (some of whom are capable of producing such offspring.) Proponents did not, however, advance any reason why the government may use sexual orientation as a proxy for fertility or why the government may need to take into account fertility when legislating." pg 122
    As you noted before, we're not discussing sexual orientation.

    In other words, you made precisely the same fallacious argument that the proponents of Prop 8 made in this case. That fertility needs to be taken under consideration with same sex couples even though fertility is not taken into consideration with opposite sex couples. No opposite sex couples are denied marriage on the basis that they are infertile, and so there is no basis to deny same sex couples the right to marry on the basis that they are infertile. That is not equal protection under the law. That is discrimination based solely sex and sexual orientation.
    No, as you noted before, we aren't discussing sexual orietnation. My argumetn was about the validity of making a gender qualification.
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  3. #183
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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    No, as you noted before, we aren't discussing sexual orietnation. My argumetn was about the validity of making a gender qualification.
    Bull****. And I quote...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    This is the crux of the anti-SSM argument. SSM marriages are guaranteed to be be an "infertile" coupling.
    The key words here is fertility. Not sexual orientation or sex. You are arguing just as the proponents did that fertility needs to be taken under consideration with same sex couples even though fertility is not taken into consideration with opposite sex couples. No opposite sex couples are denied marriage on the basis that they are infertile, and so there is no basis to deny same sex couples the right to marry on the basis that they are infertile. That is not equal protection under the law. That is discrimination based solely on sex and sexual orientation.

    And you continue to fail to support your point just as the proponents of Prop 8 failed to support theirs. Why does the state have an interest in taking fertility into consideration with same sex couples when it does not do so with opposite sex couples? How is that not discrimination on the basis of sex?
    Last edited by CriticalThought; 08-12-10 at 03:46 PM.

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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Bull****. And I quote...



    The key words here is fertility. Not sexual orientation or sex. You are arguing that just as the proponents did that fertility needs to be taken under consideration with same sex couples even though fertility is not taken into consideration with opposite sex couples. No opposite sex couples are denied marriage on the basis that they are infertile, and so there is no basis to deny same sex couples the right to marry on the basis that they are infertile. That is not equal protection under the law. That is discrimination based solely sex and sexual orientation.
    Fertility as it relates to gender and marriage.

    Please, please, please go back and reread after removing your preconceptions. If you reread my posts with a clear mind devoid of preconceptions, you might even come to understand why your approach to this debate is detrimental for it.

    Bacause as it is, you haven't even begun to understand my points.

    Why does the state have an interest in taking fertility into consideration with same sex couples when it does not do so with opposite sex couples?
    This was addressed. You removed the second sentence in your quote.

    But again, I implore you to remove your preconceptions of what I'm trying to say. Once you understand what I was actually saying, (not your made-up version of things) you'll realize that you have since supported every single thing I was getting at.

    But if you don't get rid of your preconceptions about what I was getting at, you will continue to be a detriment to your cause.
    Last edited by Tucker Case; 08-12-10 at 03:59 PM.
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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Fertility as it relates to gender and marriage.

    Please, please, please go back and reread after removing your preconceptions. If you reread my posts with a clear mind devoid of preconceptions, you might even come to understand why your approach to this debate is detrimental for it.
    I quoted your ****ing post! You are just using a red herring to get around the fact that you have no argument. Address my questions! Why does the state have an interest in taking fertility into consideration with same sex couples when it does not do so with opposite sex couples? How is that not discrimination on the basis of sex?

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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    I quoted your ****ing post!
    Really, you quoted all of it? Like the sentence that addressed what you claim I didn't adress?

    Seriously, take my advice. Remove your preconceptions and reread all of my posts. Until you do that, you'll continue to use an approach which is detrimental to your cause.
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Really, you quoted all of it? Like the sentence that addressed what you claim I didn't adress?

    Seriously, take my advice. Remove your preconceptions and reread all of my posts. Until you do that, you'll continue to use an approach which is detrimental to your cause.
    That is it. I'm starting a new thread. If you are not going to be man enough to answer my questions, then I will find someone who is.

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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    That is it. I'm starting a new thread. If you are not going to be man enough to answer my questions, then I will find someone who is.
    Seriously, reread my posts. Your questions directed at me have no value when one actually understands what I've been saying. Starting another thread will only exacerbate your errors here.
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Seriously, reread my posts. Your questions directed at me have no value when one actually understands what I've been saying. Starting another thread will only exacerbate your errors here.
    It would take you two minutes to simply answer the questions. I have no interest in rereading your posts a third time. I am posting in a new thread in hopes that someone can answer my questions.

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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    It would take you two minutes to simply answer the questions. I have no interest in rereading your posts a third time. I am posting in a new thread in hopes that someone can answer my questions.
    It's not simply a matter of rereading them, it's doing so with the intention of understanding them. To do this, you need to remove your preconceptions about them. REad them without prejudgment of what I'm trying to say.

    If you do this, and actually end up understanding my point, you'll see that your questions aren't valid in response to them.
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

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