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Thread: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    8 to 10 million? Sources please. That sounds like a "pulled from my ass" number.
    The number was listed by Department of Health and Human Services' Child Welfare Information Gateway: Gay and Lesbian Adoptive Parents: Resources for Professionals and Parents-Gay and Lesbian Adoptive Parents: Resources for Professionals and Parents. However, the statistic is referenced to a 1990 book that was published by the editors of Harvard Law Review (Editors of the Harvard Law Review. (1990). Sexual Orientation and the Law. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press.)) Upon further digging, the book arose from a lengthy piece published in the May 1989 issue of Harvard Law Review.

    That article contains a sentence that reads, "Approximately three million gay men and lesbians in the United States are parents, and between eight and ten million children are raised in gay or lesbian households." That statistic is referenced to the American Bar Association's annual meeting held on August 25, 1987 at which there was a forum for "family law experts." No further details are provided. In short, the figure was likely an estimate from one of the participants at that forum.

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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    The two of you, also sound more like libertarians. I was never a fan of Goldwater. Would you say that your views are similar to his?
    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    I grew up a Goldwater Conservative. I actually met him once, when I was young, and got to shake his hand. I would say that had a definite influence on my political beliefs.

    To answer your question, I would call myself a Conservative with some Libertarian leanings. Not a complete Libertarian, though.
    Had some things going on Cap. I'm a conservative in the Goldwater/Reagan model myself, not a libertarian per se but leaning as closely to that as possible.
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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    The number was listed by Department of Health and Human Services' Child Welfare Information Gateway: Gay and Lesbian Adoptive Parents: Resources for Professionals and Parents-Gay and Lesbian Adoptive Parents: Resources for Professionals and Parents. However, the statistic is referenced to a 1990 book that was published by the editors of Harvard Law Review (Editors of the Harvard Law Review. (1990). Sexual Orientation and the Law. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press.)) Upon further digging, the book arose from a lengthy piece published in the May 1989 issue of Harvard Law Review.


    That article contains a sentence that reads, "Approximately three million gay men and lesbians in the United States are parents, and between eight and ten million children are raised in gay or lesbian households." That statistic is referenced to the American Bar Association's annual meeting held on August 25, 1987 at which there was a forum for "family law experts." No further details are provided. In short, the figure was likely an estimate from one of the participants at that forum.
    I hadn't seen that before, I've seen some other stuff but not numbers on that level. Thank you for the info.
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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    I have no reason to address that part of your argument because that's the type of argument SSM proponents should be making. That's what the point of my initial post was. Using gender discrimination doesn't work. This does.
    You aren't listening very well. Both arguments, gender discrimination and the argument for the rights of children being raised by same sex couples, are parts of Judge Walker's ruling. Walker's ruling highlighted the fact that the state allows infertile and elderly couples to marry, and therefore has not made procreation a requirement for marriage. The witnesses presented by the pro same sex marriage side provided considerable expert testimony and evidence that same sex couples are only different from opposite sex couples in the respect that same sex couples can't procreate. As such, it is clearly gender discrimination to force same sex couples into an inherently culturally inferior institution solely on the basis that their sex makes them incapable of producing kids of their own. It also ignores the fact that same sex couples have all the same options as infertile heterosexual couples, such as adoption or the use of a sperm donor or surrogate. Furthermore, allowing same sex couples to marry does not decrease the likelihood that opposite sex couples will continue to marry or procreate, it only provides an inherent benefit to the state by providing more loving, stable homes in which children can be raised. The arguments of gender discrimination and the rights of children of same sex couples are one in the same.

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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    You aren't listening very well. Both arguments, gender discrimination and the argument for the rights of children being raised by same sex couples, are parts of Judge Walker's ruling. Walker's ruling highlighted the fact that the state allows infertile and elderly couples to marry, and therefore has not made procreation a requirement for marriage. The witnesses presented by the pro same sex marriage side provided considerable expert testimony and evidence that same sex couples are only different from opposite sex couples in the respect that same sex couples can't procreate. As such, it is clearly gender discrimination to force same sex couples into an inherently culturally inferior institution solely on the basis that their sex makes them incapable of producing kids of their own. It also ignores the fact that same sex couples have all the same options as infertile heterosexual couples, such as adoption or the use of a sperm donor or surrogate. Furthermore, allowing same sex couples to marry does not decrease the likelihood that opposite sex couples will continue to marry or procreate, it only provides an inherent benefit to the state by providing more loving, stable homes in which children can be raised. The arguments of gender discrimination and the rights of children of same sex couples are one in the same.
    Maybe I missed it. Where in this thread prior to my post was the topic of children being raised by same sex couples brought up as an argument in favor of same sex marriage?
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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    I hadn't seen that before, I've seen some other stuff but not numbers on that level. Thank you for the info.
    Since we are on the topic...

    An estimated 27 percent of same-sex couples identified in Census 2000 have a child under 18 living in the home with them (Gates and Ost, 2004).3 Data from the National Survey of Family Growth (NSFG), conducted by the National Center for Health Statistics in 2002, show that over 35 percent of lesbians aged 18-44 have given birth, compared with 65 percent of heterosexual and bisexual women. Among gay men, 16 percent have had a biological or adopted child compared to 48 percent of heterosexual and bisexual men.

    In other words, more than one in three lesbians have given birth and one in six gay men have fathered or adopted a child.

    Same sex couples have kids, and those kids are denied the benefits of the social and cultural standing of marriage. The American Pediatric Association conveys that children of same sex couples can benefit from marriage.

    Sources:

    http://www.law.ucla.edu/williamsinst...tionReport.pdf

    http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...full/118/1/349
    Last edited by CriticalThought; 08-12-10 at 02:11 PM.

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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Maybe I missed it. Where in this thread prior to my post was the topic of children being raised by same sex couples brought up as an argument in favor of same sex marriage?
    Quite a few pages back.

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Tucker if you hold the position that it is irrational to deny same sex couples the right to marry, then don't debate that it is rational.

    The Walker ruling holds not only the fact that imposing a definition of marriage the excludes same sex couples is gender discrimination but also the fact that same sex couples have children and those children would benefit from having married parents.
    You never argued anything about same sex couples raising children until I brought it up. You argued that marriage was an institution for raising children and that a definition of marriage that excludes same sex couples could be imposed only because same sex couples can't procreate. The fact that same sex couples are denied marriage even though they have and raise children and can do so just as well as opposite sex couples furthers the case that California discriminates against same sex couples based only on their sex.
    Last edited by CriticalThought; 08-12-10 at 02:32 PM.

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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Quite a few pages back.



    You never argued anything about same sex couples raising children until I brought it up. You argued that marriage was an institution for raising children and that a definition of marriage that excludes same sex couples could be imposed only because same sex couples can't procreate.
    I brought up the fact that an effective argument must counter the legitimate arguments against allowing SSM. Since I did that, you have shifted toward just such an argument.
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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    I brought up the fact that an effective argument must counter the legitimate arguments against allowing SSM. Since I did that, you have shifted toward just such an argument.
    No, you brought up the exact same argument that Walker brought up, you just want to take "gender discrimination" out of it. The fact that same sex couples are denied marriage even though they have and raise children and can do so just as well as opposite sex couples furthers the case that California discriminates against same sex couples based only on their sex. You have not provided any reason why this argument is insufficent, only that you personally do not like it and prefer to argue only on the grounds of the rights of children of same sex couples.

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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    No, you brought up the exact same argument that Walker brought up, you just want to take "gender discrimination" out of it. The fact that same sex couples are denied marriage even though they have and raise children and can do so just as well as opposite sex couples furthers the case that California discriminates against same sex couples based only on their sex. You have not provided any reason why this argument is insufficent, only that you personally do not like it and prefer to argue only on the grounds of the rights of children of same sex couples.
    At this point, all I can say is that you should go back and read all of my posts in this thread, but this time, throw away your preconceptions about what I've been saying and read them without creating your own meaning.
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

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