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Thread: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    I would not be so hard on her. She is not against gay marriage because she hates gays. She just does not understand that side of the fence. To be honest, neither did I for much of my life. If I wasn't a musician, I would not have met many gays, and would probably still not understand. This is a very difficult issue for some people.
    No. Prejudice is not about hate. Prejudice is about ignorance. Prejudice is believing one group is superior to another without any reason or evidence to back it up. That is exactly what Taylor is. Taylor believes same sex couples are inferior to opposite sex couples. Those aren't my words, but Taylor's words. Taylor bases this belief only on the preconceived idea that since same sex couples can't make children, they are inherently inferior. It does not matter that same sex couples can provide just as stable and loving home for children as opposite sex couples. It does not matter than same sex couples can adopt or use a sperm donor or surrogate. They are inferior simply because they cannot make children and they are not the "ideal". Even though there are biological parents who abuse, neglect, and abandon their children, those parents are more "ideal" than a loving same sex couple simply because they are the biological parents. That is the nature of Taylor's prejudice. Not hate, but clear ignorance.

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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    The one part of Walker's ruling that I detested was the idea that the people of California who voted for Prop 8 were acting in animosity towards same sex couples. Now I have to accept that as a fact. They hold the same preconceived ideas as you. They believe same sex couples are inferior to opposite sex couples. That is a prejudice. They believe such only because same sex couples can't make children.
    The people of California voted overwhelmingly to expand all the rights of married people to same-sex couples who form domestic partnerships. I don't see that as an act of a group with "prejudiced animosity" toward gay people.

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    And just as National Socialists argue an "ideal" race. Prop 8 proponents argue an "ideal" couple. Opposite sex couples are the "ideal". Children being raised by opposite sex parents are the "ideal". Sure, same sex couples can raise children just as well as opposite sex couples, but it isn't the "ideal". Those inferior couples must be kept separate from the "ideal" couples. They must be recognized as having a lower social standing, because they don't fit in with the "ideal".
    LOL - so now I'm compared with Nazis and Racists because I think the ideal situation for a child - all else being equal - is to be with his or her biological parents. How evil of me not to think that shipping that kid off to an adoptive home is "just as good."

    That's just too much.

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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    No. Prejudice is not about hate. Prejudice is about ignorance. Prejudice is believing one group is superior to another without any reason or evidence to back it up. That is exactly what Taylor is. Taylor believes same sex couples are inferior to opposite sex couples. Those aren't my words, but Taylor's words. Taylor bases this belief only on the preconceived idea that since same sex couples can't make children, they are inherently inferior. It does not matter that same sex couples can provide just as stable and loving home for children as opposite sex couples. It does not matter than same sex couples can adopt or use a sperm donor or surrogate. They are inferior simply because they cannot make children and they are not the "ideal". Even though there are biological parents who abuse, neglect, and abandon their children, those parents are more "ideal" than a loving same sex couple simply because they are the biological parents. That is the nature of Taylor's prejudice. Not hate, but clear ignorance.
    OK, I can relate to that. I was kind of ignorant for a while, but I think it was a case of being "out of my comfort zone". It's kind of hard to explain, but I used to feel very uncomfortable around gays. That passed as I eventually made a lot of friends in the gay community here in Houston, but I think I can understand how Taylor feels, because I felt like that at one time in my life.
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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    LOL - so now I'm compared with Nazis and Racists because I think the ideal situation for a child - all else being equal - is to be with his or her biological parents. How evil of me not to think that shipping that kid off to an adoptive home is "just as good."
    All else being equal? If all else is equal, then what difference would it make?

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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    Why would the law favor one religion over another, without the reason having to do with the religion in question. That does not make sense to me.
    That's why I put "favor" in quotes - it's more of a "coincidentally agrees with." The state should make laws that are best for the state - if the law happens to accord with a church or not is no basis for tossing out the law. Likewise, there should absolutely be no requirement that the state treat religions equally. It should treat them not at all. If someone were to open the 1st Church of the Bigoted Homophobes - surely the government isn't required to ensure its laws are somehow "equal" with the teaching of this church.

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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    That's why I put "favor" in quotes - it's more of a "coincidentally agrees with." The state should make laws that are best for the state - if the law happens to accord with a church or not is no basis for tossing out the law. Likewise, there should absolutely be no requirement that the state treat religions equally. It should treat them not at all. If someone were to open the 1st Church of the Bigoted Homophobes - surely the government isn't required to ensure its laws are somehow "equal" with the teaching of this church.
    Here is where I differ from you. I feel strongly that the state should make laws that are best for the individual, and that was the beauty of the thinking of our forefathers. They based all rights on property. Therefore, if somebody is doing something that does not injure you or your property, they are allowed to do that. That the state should make laws that are best for the state, I would be shaking in my boots.
    Last edited by danarhea; 08-12-10 at 02:55 AM.
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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    All else being equal? If all else is equal, then what difference would it make?
    I say "all else equal" because invariably someone brings up britney spears or some other example of an ideally-bad heterosexual case to compare to an ideally-good homosexual case.

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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    I say "all else equal" because invariably someone brings up britney spears or some other example of an ideally-bad heterosexual case to compare to an ideally-good homosexual case.
    That aside, the fact is you hold the preconceived notion that same sex couples are inferior to opposite sex couples and thus need to be designated in an allegedly "separate but equal" institution. You support forcing same sex couples into a lower social and cultural standing simply because they can't make babies. Not on the basis of their parenting ability but on the basis that they can't do what two horny opposite sex teenagers in the back seat of a car can unintentionally do. Furthermore, you support denying the children of same sex parents the benefits inherent in the social and cultural standing of marriage. I really can't find any word for that other than prejudice.

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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    Here is where I differ from you. I feel strongly that the state should make laws that are best for the individual, and that was the beauty of the thinking of our forefathers. They based all rights on property. Therefore, if somebody is doing something that does not injure you or your property, they are allowed to do that. That the state should make laws that are best for the state, I would be shaking in my boots.
    Oh yes I agree with that. Except maybe the emphasis on property. Our inalienable rights were adapted from John Locke's philosophy, only he had them as "life, liberty, and property" - the word property was consciously and purposely removed and replaced with "pursuit of hapiness" by our founding fathers because they believed the state had right to tax (i.e. take property) insofar as it led to a civil govenment.

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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    That aside, the fact is you hold the preconceived notion that same sex couples are inferior to opposite sex couples and thus need to be designated in an allegedly "separate but equal" institution.
    Now you're making no sense. In the first you accuse me of holding one couple inferior to the other, in the next you accuse me of wanting to put them in a separate but equal institution. Which is it?

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