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Thread: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    That doesn't really improve your case. The fact that opposite sex couples are privy to both marriage and civil unoins but same sex couples are only privy to civil unions is not exactly a shining beacon of equality.

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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    Nor can we expect the government to respect the establishment of any particular religion, as per the First Amendment. According to the Constitution, all religions, denominations, and the way each religion is practiced by it's members, are equal.
    Not so much "equal" as ignored, right?

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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    Not so much "equal" as ignored, right?
    As in one version of how religion should be practiced cannot be favored over another.
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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    That doesn't really improve your case. The fact that opposite sex couples are privy to both marriage and civil unoins but same sex couples are only privy to civil unions is not exactly a shining beacon of equality.
    If I were arguing for equality you might have a point.

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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    If I were arguing for equality you might have a point.
    You are arguing against equality, obviously. You stated earlier that people have the right to favor straight marriage over gay marriage (If I am paraphrasing you correctly). I agree with that. People have the right to feel any way about it they want. However, the governmnent does not have that luxury.
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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    As in one version of how religion should be practiced cannot be favored over another.
    There's nothing wrong with laws that "favor" one religion or another, so long as the reason for that law isn't religion itself.

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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    Most people do procreate and I would argue that (all else being equal) the best environment for kids is with their biological mother and father.
    Thank you. That is exactly what I thought.

    You know, I always wanted to meet one of those old southern racists. One of the ones who argued that the laws of segregation and interracial marriage bans were justified. I wanted to understand how they could justify such an obviously prejudiced view.

    Now that I have debated this issue with you, I understand that kind of mentality. You aren't any different. You are prejudiced towards same sex couples. All prejudice really means it that you have a preconceived belief about the inferiority of a group that isn't founded on reason or evidence. The one part of Walker's ruling that I detested was the idea that the people of California who voted for Prop 8 were acting in animosity towards same sex couples. Now I have to accept that as a fact. They hold the same preconceived ideas as you. They believe same sex couples are inferior to opposite sex couples. That is a prejudice. They believe such only because same sex couples can't make children.

    And just as National Socialists argue an "ideal" race. Prop 8 proponents argue an "ideal" couple. Opposite sex couples are the "ideal". Children being raised by opposite sex parents are the "ideal". Sure, same sex couples can raise children just as well as opposite sex couples, but it isn't the "ideal". Those inferior couples must be kept separate from the "ideal" couples. They must be recognized as having a lower social standing, because they don't fit in with the "ideal".

    I desperately wanted to hear a rational argument from the anti gay marriage side justifying blatant inequality. I wanted to hear a valid reason as to why children of gay parents and same sex couples should be denied the benefits of marriage. Now I have to accept that it truly is just empty prejudice. Preconceived ideas of superiority that aren't based on reason or evidence. I pity the people who have to live with that mentality. If you want to make marriage a beacon of the perceived superiority of opposite sex couples to same sex couples then have at it. I would gladly wear a civil union just as a Jew would wear a Star of David or a black man would wear a lynch mob's noose. It's a symbol of persecution because of who I am, and that is how history will remember it.
    Last edited by CriticalThought; 08-12-10 at 02:37 AM.

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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    You are arguing against equality, obviously. You stated earlier that people have the right to favor straight marriage over gay marriage. I agree with that. People have the right to feel any way about it they want. However, the governmnent does not have that luxury.
    It does have that luxury so long as it's not a protected right. Not all judges will concur with Walker's opinion. Of course, it's the SCOTUS that matters.

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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    There's nothing wrong with laws that "favor" one religion or another, so long as the reason for that law isn't religion itself.
    Why would the law favor one religion over another, without the reason having to do with the religion in question. That does not make sense to me.
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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Thank you. That is exactly what I thought.

    You know, I always wanted to meet one of those old southern racists. One of the ones who argued that the laws of segregation and interracial marriage bans were justified. I wanted to understand how they could justify such an obviously prejudiced view.

    Now that I have debated this issue with you, I understand that kind of mentality. You aren't any different. You are prejudiced towards same sex couples. All prejudice really means it that you have a preconceived belief about a group that isn't founded on reason or evidence. The one part of Walker's ruling that I detested was the idea that the people of California who voted for Prop 8 were acting in animosity towards same sex couples. Now I have to accept that as a fact. They hold the same preconceived ideas as you. They believe same sex couples are inferior to opposite sex couples. That is a prejudice. They believe such only because same sex couples can't make children.

    And just as National Socialists argue an "ideal" race. Prop 8 proponents argue an "ideal" couple. Opposite sex couples are the "ideal". Children being raised by opposite sex parents are the "ideal". Sure, same sex couples can raise children just as well as opposite sex couples, but it isn't the "ideal". Those inferior couples must be kept separate from the "ideal" couples. They must be recognized as having a lower social standing, because they don't fit in with the "ideal".

    I desperately wanted to hear a rational argument from the anti gay marriage side justifying blatant inequality. I wanted to hear a valid reason as to why children of gay parents and same sex couples should be denied the benefits of marriage. Now I have to accept that it truly is just empty prejudice. Preconceived ideas of superiority that aren't based on reason or evidence. I pity the people who have to live with that mentality. If you want to make marriage a beacon of perceived superior of opposite sex couples to same sex couples then have at it. I would gladly wear a civil union just as a Jew would wear a Star of David or a black man would wear a lynch mob's noose. It's a symbol of persecution because of who I am, and that is how history will remember it.
    I would not be so hard on her. She is not against gay marriage because she hates gays. She just does not understand that side of the fence. To be honest, neither did I for much of my life. If I wasn't a musician, I would not have met many gays, and would probably still not understand. This is a very difficult issue for some people, and honestly, it was for me too. It was not easy for me to overcome my own prejudice.
    Last edited by danarhea; 08-12-10 at 02:39 AM.
    The ghost of Jack Kevorkian for President's Physician: 2016

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