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Thread: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

  1. #131
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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    This makes no sense. It's not one or the other. Both groups have "the ability to provide stable and loving homes " only one group has "the ability to make children"
    Let me guess which one that is...... Ah, got it. It's the group with a greater than 60% divorce rate.
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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    This makes no sense. It's not one or the other. Both groups have "the ability to provide stable and loving homes " only one group has "the ability to make children"
    You sidestepped the point. Why is it that a male serial killer in prison can marry a female prostitute but a loving same sex couple with adopted children can only form a culturally inferior civil union? Whether you want to admit it or not, our laws do place the perceived ability of opposite sex couples to procreate over the ability to provide loving and stable homes for children. If that were not the case, then a serial killer in prison would never be able to "marry" a prostitute working the street. Same sex couples are expected to wear the culturally inferior title of civil unions only because they can't make children. Why is that justified?
    Last edited by CriticalThought; 08-12-10 at 01:27 AM.

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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Whether you want to admit it or not, our laws do place the percieved ability of opposite couples to procreate over the ability to provide loving and stable homes for children.
    Do you mean to say that our laws place the ability to procreate and provide loving and stable homes over the ability to provide loving and stable homes alone?

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Same sex couples are expected to wear the culturally inferior title of civil unions only because they can't make children. Why is that justified?
    Not only same sex couples, I think older adults can choose to get civil unions as well. Not everyone views it as a "culturally inferior" title, just a different one.

    Two different names for two different types of unions.

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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    Do you mean to say that our laws place the ability to procreate and provide loving and stable homes over the ability to provide loving and stable homes alone?


    Not only same sex couples, I think older adults can choose to get civil unions as well. Not everyone views it as a "culturally inferior" title, just a different one.

    Two different names for two different types of unions.
    There are several gay churches here in Houston, whose members would strongly disagree with you. Denying marriage to them is, IMHO, showing preference for one interpretation of religion over another. I would agree with this. I believe all have the right to get married in the church of their choice, and a church that marries gays is, after all, worshiping God the way they believe he should be worshiped.
    Last edited by danarhea; 08-12-10 at 01:40 AM.
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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    There are several gay churches here in Houston, whose members would strongly disagree with you. Denying marriage to them is, IMHO, showing preference for one interpretation of religion over another. I would agree with this.
    Prop 8 doesn't outlaw gay marriage, it says that the state will only recognize "marriage" between a man and a woman. Thus, people could be married in churches like those in Houston, but it wouldn't be recognized by the state. I think they have a weak argument concerning preference as the vast majority of religious institutions from all major denominations recognize marriage as the joining of opposite sexes. Surely we can't expect the government to follow the beliefs of every single denomination.

  6. #136
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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    Actually the word "conserve" in the term conservative has to do with a person's attitudes towards social conventions and institutions. What a conservative wishes to conserve is social order, that above social justice, so by very description a conservative would support the status quo of defining marriage as it has long been defined. It is the desire for social justice - -a liberal trait -- that seeks to end the discrimination against gay people.
    So as a corollary, would you say that a conservative would want to support, or "conserve" the status quo of current abortion laws, progressive tax laws, current policies regarding prayer in public schools, current policies regarding teaching evolution in public schools, etc...?

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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    Do you mean to say that our laws place the ability to procreate and provide loving and stable homes over the ability to provide loving and stable homes alone?
    You keep trying to sidestep it, but you are ignoring the reality. Why is it that an opposite sex couple that theoretically can procreate but clearly can't provide a loving and stable home for children can marry but a same sex couple which can provide a loving and stable home for children is only allowed the culturally inferior designation of civil union?

    As much as you try to get around the fact, the reality is that opposite sex couples are given the right to marry only because they can theoretically create children. They don't have to prove they can or will create children. Nor do they have to be able to provide a stable and loving home for children. They are entitled to the culturally superior title of marriage only because they can theoretically make babies.

    Not only same sex couples, I think older adults can choose to get civil unions as well. Not everyone views it as a "culturally inferior" title, just a different one.

    Two different names for two different types of unions.
    No, in California, opposite sex couples in California cannot form a civil union. Marriages are designated for opposite sex couples and civil unions are designated for same sex couples. What you are now arguing that the institutions are separate but equal. Where have I heard that line before? Especially since not only a few posts ago you admitted that the justification for civil unions was that same sex couples are inferior to opposite sex couples, simply for the fact that same sex couples can't produce children. No other reason. Now you want to pretend that civil unions are equal to marriage.
    Last edited by CriticalThought; 08-12-10 at 01:57 AM.

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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    Prop 8 doesn't outlaw gay marriage, it says that the state will only recognize "marriage" between a man and a woman. Thus, people could be married in churches like those in Houston, but it wouldn't be recognized by the state. I think they have a weak argument concerning preference as the vast majority of religious institutions from all major denominations recognize marriage as the joining of opposite sexes. Surely we can't expect the government to follow the beliefs of every single denomination.
    Nor can we expect the government to respect the establishment of any particular religion, as per the First Amendment. According to the Constitution, all religions, denominations, and the way each religion is practiced by it's members, are equal.
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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    You keep trying to sidestep it, but you are ignoring the reality. Why is it that an opposite sex couple that theoretically can procreate but clearly can't provide a loving and stable home for children can marry but a same sex couple which can provide a loving and stable home for children is only allowed the culturally inferior designation of civil union?
    Ah - I wasn't sidestepping, just wasn't getting that you wanted me to answer specfically about the hypothetical. I don't get the relevance of the question. I could ask you a similar question regarding a loving and fertile young couple vs. a gay serial killer and the coke-head prostitute he wants to marry. In that case we're left to ask why we should extend marriage to a couple that can't procreate OR provide a loving and stable home for children.

    I don't think extreme examples such as these are very helpful.

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    As much as you try to get around the fact, the reality is that opposite sex couples are given the right to marry only because they can theoretically create children. They don't have to prove they can or will create children. Nor do they have to be able to provide a stable and loving home for children. They are entitled to the culturally superior title of marriage only because they can make babies.
    Most people do procreate and I would argue that (all else being equal) the best environment for kids is with their biological mother and father.

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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    No, in California, opposite sex couples in California cannot form a civil union. Marriages are designated for opposite sex couples and civil unions are designated for same sex couples.
    No, I believe I'm right and you're wrong:
    A California domestic partnership is a legal relationship available to same-sex couples, and to certain opposite-sex couples in which at least one party is at least 62 years of age. It affords the couple most but not all of "the same rights, protections, and benefits, and shall be subject to the same responsibilities, obligations, and duties under law..." as married spouses.[1][2]
    Domestic partnership in California - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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