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Thread: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

  1. #91
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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    I guess that means when a real conservative says they are 110% against something and ready to take to the streets to fight it, they actually mean they are going to minimize it and hope it goes away.
    No it means I'll ignore a pointless resolution, or are you trying to suggest that if I have one issue I am against with the GOP I shouldn't vote?

    Seriously, do you read what you write or jsut type mindlessly?
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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    Seriously, do you read what you write or jsut type mindlessly?
    Funny, I was wondering the same thing about you.

    Any who, I'm still waiting to hear why you feel you have a legitimate reason to violate my Constitutional rights by imposing on me a definition of marriage that does not include same sex couples. Is it a conservative value nowadays to impose views on others that violates their Constitutional rights?

    I'm curious. Is it a conservative value nowadays that a majority vote in a state or a perceived tradition are justifications for throwing out Constitutional rights? What other Constitutional rights of mine are null and void if put to a vote by a majority in a state? What other Constitutional rights of mine are null and void because they contradict your views on tradition?
    Last edited by CriticalThought; 08-11-10 at 02:52 AM.

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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Funny, I was wondering the same thing about you.

    Any who, I'm still waiting to hear why you feel you have a legitimate reason to violate my Constitutional rights by imposing on me a definition of marriage that does not include same sex couples. Is it a conservative value nowadays to impose views on others that violates their Constitutional rights?

    I'm curious. Is it a conservative value nowadays that a majority vote in a state or a perceived tradition are justifications for throwing out Constitutional rights? What other Constitutional rights of mine are null and void if put to a vote by a majority in a state? What other Constitutional rights of mine are null and void because they contradict your views on tradition?
    Show me where in the Constitution you have a right to Gay Marriage. You find it, I'll concede, otherwise...
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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    Show me where in the Constitution you have a right to Gay Marriage. You find it, I'll concede, otherwise...
    Gay marriage? I've only been talking about same sex marriage. Go back and read my posts and see if I ever used the term "gay marriage" in this thread. Nonetheless, I have no problem showing you where in the Constitution I have a right to same sex marriage.

    Equal Protection Clause of the 14th amendment.

    "No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

    As such, as long as woman are allowed to marry men, men should be allowed to marry men. To not do so would be gender discrimination and would be unequal protection of the laws. In other words, it denies men a right that women have under the law. Furthermore, gender is a protected class under federal law.

    As such, you have no grounds by which impose on me a definition of marriage that does not include same sex couples. To do so, you have to deny me a right based upon my sex and nothing else. The Equal Protection Clause of the Constitution guarantees that I cannot be denied rights afforded to others based on my sex.

    I'll accept your concession now.
    Last edited by CriticalThought; 08-11-10 at 05:25 AM.

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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Gay marriage? I've only been talking about same sex marriage. Go back and read my posts and see if I ever used the term "gay marriage" in this thread. Nonetheless, I have no problem showing you where in the Constitution I have a right to same sex marriage.

    Equal Protection Clause of the 14th amendment.

    "No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

    As such, as long as woman are allowed to marry men, men should be allowed to marry men. To not do so would be gender discrimination and would be unequal protection of the laws. In other words, it denies men a right that women have under the law. Furthermore, gender is a protected class under federal law.

    As such, you have no grounds by which impose on me a definition of marriage that does not include same sex couples. To do so, you have to deny me a right based upon my sex and nothing else. The Equal Protection Clause of the Constitution guarantees that I cannot be denied rights afforded to others based on my sex.

    I'll accept your concession now.
    The problem here is that the equal protection clause does not apply. This is an example of what I was saying in my previous post.

    The laws are actually gender neutral. There is not a separate law for women and a separate one for men.

    i.e. The laws are not:

    A man can only marry a woman and a woman can only marry a man.

    They are "Any person can only marry someone of the opposite gender"

    In essence, if person Person A wants to marry Person B, then Person A and Person B must be of opposite genders.

    The specific gender of person A is irrelevent to the way the laws are applied, because regardless of the gender of person A, Person B's gender must be the opposite.

    Thus, every person is afforded equal treatment by law.

    This is why the gender discrimination argument doesn't work. All people, regardless of gender, have the same law binding them. That difference in the wording of any such law is exactly how one bypasses the equal protection clause.
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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    I really don't see how you're going to get "tree-hugging liberal" out of Goldwater. You could only do that if you don't know anything about political philosophy, and that would be from being a dumbass, not from being any "new" kind of conservative. Dumbass knows no political movement.
    And the two are not the same? I know several "self-proclaimed conservatives" (such as the one that is giving you the reach-around on the "thanks" button) on this site that slam "libruls" left and right for taking the very stance on particular issues that Goldwater subscribes to. Especially Goldwater's position on government interference in matters such as gay issues as well as church involvement in government policy.

    But I'll give ya the "dumbass knows no political movement." No shortage of dumbasses around. However, the "new-conservative" ones are the most obvious on blog sites such as these and your average cable propaganda channel or AM radio. Perhaps that is because the squeak the loudest. Maybe.
    Last edited by Captain America; 08-11-10 at 10:27 AM.

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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Gay marriage? I've only been talking about same sex marriage. Go back and read my posts and see if I ever used the term "gay marriage" in this thread. Nonetheless, I have no problem showing you where in the Constitution I have a right to same sex marriage.

    Equal Protection Clause of the 14th amendment.

    "No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

    As such, as long as woman are allowed to marry men, men should be allowed to marry men. To not do so would be gender discrimination and would be unequal protection of the laws. In other words, it denies men a right that women have under the law. Furthermore, gender is a protected class under federal law.

    As such, you have no grounds by which impose on me a definition of marriage that does not include same sex couples. To do so, you have to deny me a right based upon my sex and nothing else. The Equal Protection Clause of the Constitution guarantees that I cannot be denied rights afforded to others based on my sex.

    I'll accept your concession now.
    Semantics is what you have now? I know you're trying to apply the ruling by the judge that struck down prop 8, but come now, really, same sex isn't gay marriage... PLEASE. Spare us the silliness.

    No one is being denied the right to marry, anyone of any gender may marry. There is just a defined parameter that one gender must marry one of another gender. A simple requirement for the union to be recognized as a marriage. If you do not wish to marry one of the opposite gender then that's your choice.

    BTW, do you REALLY want to go down the 14th amendment route and make this just a gender argument? What if three males wish to marry, why is it limited to only two? Discrimination!

    That was too easy to debunk, you have failed sir. No concession, for your logic is fundamentally unsound.
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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    Show me where in the Constitution you have a right to Gay Marriage. You find it, I'll concede, otherwise...
    OK, I will see your question, and raise you the following question:

    Show me where in the Constitution you have a right to sell ice cream on Sundays. You find it, I'll concede, otherwise...

    Here is the fallacy in the question you just asked - You are asking to enumerate a specific right. If this is the way the Constitution were written, that document would not be able to fit in the space of the entire Smithsonian institution. Want to know what the Constitution does say about gay marriage? Here it is:

    Quote Originally Posted by The 10th Amendment
    The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.
    In other words, if something is not expressly given to the Federal government, under the Constitution, then it is none of the Federal government's damn business. So let me turn your little straw man around, and ask that you show me specifically where the government prohibits same sex marriage. You find it, I'll concede. Otherwise.... The 10th Amendment applies, and it is up to the states and the people to decide.

    You just keep building these straw men, and I will just keep knocking them down.
    Last edited by danarhea; 08-11-10 at 12:59 PM.
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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain America View Post
    And the two are not the same? I know several "self-proclaimed conservatives" (such as the one that is giving you the reach-around on the "thanks" button) on this site that slam "libruls" left and right for taking the very stance on particular issues that Goldwater subscribes to. Especially Goldwater's position on government interference in matters such as gay issues as well as church involvement in government policy.

    But I'll give ya the "dumbass knows no political movement." No shortage of dumbasses around. However, the "new-conservative" ones are the most obvious on blog sites such as these and your average cable propaganda channel or AM radio. Perhaps that is because the squeak the loudest. Maybe.
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    Re: Ted Olson: Same-sex marriage is a conservative value

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    In other words, if something is not expressly given to the Federal government, under the Constitution, then it is none of the Federal government's damn business. So let me turn your little straw man around, and ask that you show me specifically where the government prohibits same sex marriage. You find it, I'll concede. Otherwise.... The 10th Amendment applies, and it is up to the states and the people to decide.

    You just keep building these straw men, and I will just keep knocking them down.
    I think that MrVicchio agrees that it should be left to the states and the people. I can't be certain about this, but I don't believe he is in favor of a federal ban on SSM.
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