View Poll Results: Is this a turning point for Democrats?

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Thread: A Turning Point For Democrats?

  1. #51
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    Re: A Turning Point For Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    What many may have believed doesn't matter as many believed Obama walked on water too. What happened is all that matters just like today. It really is hard dealing with people who cannot understand the benefit of keeping more of what they earn, of having personal responsibility, and why growing the public sector creates debt, not benefits to the taxpayers. For someone who cares about debt wonder why you aren't as angry over the 3 trillion Obama has added or why he signed on to all that Bush spending in 2008. No other President in U.S. history has ever had a trillion dollar deficit, Obama now has two and another projected inext year and as far as the eye can see, yet it is always blame Bush or Reagan, not Clinton who added 1.2 trillion to the debt. At least Reagan and Bush grew the private sector something Obama doesn't understand. Instead of demonizing private business and profits Obama needs to grow that segment because even Obama supporters with a little initiative and drive can become the people they now seem to hate, rich
    i'll tell you what, for someone who supposedly ran a multimillion dollar company, your knowledge on economics, no matter what you claim, is limited. how many taxpayers i can create , how much new revenue i can create doesnt matter....if im bringing in 999,999.99 but still spending 1,000,000, i'm still running a deficit....as long as i run a deficit, the principal will grow bigger, the interest on that principle will continue to grow, and a some point, (say now), the amount i have to spend 'servicing' this debt eventually limits my ability to take care of other pressing problems..(social security, infrastructure, education)....

  2. #52
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    Re: A Turning Point For Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnWOlin View Post
    Totally false. A job I have applied for and am waiting to hear back from, located in Texas and Georgia is looking for people to help break ground on a few new nuclear and solar energy plants. The plants are partially funded by the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act and according to their hiring page they are actively seeking roughly 3,500 people for guaranteed 3 1/2 years of employment with the option of going for an 11 year contract. The lowest paying position at the job pays $20/hr the highest pays $10k a week salary.
    congratulations but what does any of that to the collapse of the economy. I live in TX and TX has created more jobs without the so called stimulus plan. The fact remains 16 million unemployed Americans, think about it and here we are 18 months after the stimulus plan was signed and went into law.

  3. #53
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    Re: A Turning Point For Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by randel View Post
    i'll tell you what, for someone who supposedly ran a multimillion dollar company, your knowledge on economics, no matter what you claim, is limited. how many taxpayers i can create , how much new revenue i can create doesnt matter....if im bringing in 999,999.99 but still spending 1,000,000, i'm still running a deficit....as long as i run a deficit, the principal will grow bigger, the interest on that principle will continue to grow, and a some point, (say now), the amount i have to spend 'servicing' this debt eventually limits my ability to take care of other pressing problems..(social security, infrastructure, education)....
    Look, you support somone who hasn't a clue and apparently neither do you. I employed over a thousand people and their pay was taxed, my profits were taxed, and my business grew based upon those profits. This isn't about me, this is about why you support Obama and his agenda when the results speak for themselves as does his focus. Think that the 3 trillion added to the debt doesn't create more debt service?

  4. #54
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    Re: A Turning Point For Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Ford wasn't bailed out and GM repaid some of their funding with additional funding. The economy didn't collapse by Bush policy alone and what Obama is doing isn't helping grow the private sector. That is where the U.S. got its strength and is something Obama doesn't understand and apparently neither do you. Ever run a business, ever invested your own money in business? Invest your own money in a business today and see how much your silent partner gets.

    Stop with the class envy and warfare, this isn't a zero sum game meaning that the rich don't make their money on the backs of someone else. There is enough in this economy for even you to succeed but not with the attitude you have.

    Then you buy the rhetoric it is going to take time to clean up the mess. Stop buying the rhetoric and pay attention to the results. Obama tells you one thing and then does something else. After spending trillions shouldn't the results be better than they are now and Obama had a very strong Democrat Congress that gave him everything he wanted. The results are there for all to see, 16 million unemployed, 3 trillion added to the debt, and a healthcare bill that taxes everyone thus is a job killer. The Obama motto is "never let a good crisis go to waste" and you buy it.
    Provide links and fact to back your arguments.

    I'm not the one foaming at the mouth. I know that it's imperfect; but it is improving. 2010 has largely seen growth. The greatest concern is still the housing market.

    I've provided links to economists and other sources. You merely replied with talking points from right-wing media.

    If Republicans are going to do something, why are they blocking the bill to give tax incentives and loan assistance to small business owners? I'll give you the answer - because it's politically expediant. They'll sacrifice American jobs and well-being if it means getting back into power.

    I don't buy my rhetoric from the administration (in fact, I never read a thing from them nor do I watch network news). I get my information from sources like The Economist, The Atlantic, and read the daily news from major news sources (a variety with differing perspectives).

    If you've read my solutions at all, I've suggested that the best way to improve things is to give tax incentives to businesses who hire and purchase and raise taxes on wealth that is hoarded (American businesses currently hold $1.24 Trillion in cash assets and are just sitting on them).

    And, just so you know: Since Obama took office, here are the actual numbers:

    In February, 2009 there were 132,823,000 jobs in America. As of June, 2010, there are 130,470 jobs. That's a net loss of 2.3 million jobs.

    However, since January 2010, there has been a net growth of 868,000 jobs. If we maintain that pace, by the of this year, that would be a growth of 1.7 million jobs in one year. That would mean by this time next year, all lost jobs would be recovered (net) since he took office. To get back to peak job numbers (137,818,000), that would take another three years (if the pace doesn't change). So, assuming the pace doesn't change, Obama would be close to repairing the damage by the end of his term. If the pace improves (most signs point to the fact that it will), then we will have recovered before the end of his term.

    Comparatively, in February, 2001, there were 132,530,000 jobs in America. As stated before in February, 2009, there were 132,823,000 jobs. That means under Bush and the Republican policies that dominated his era (3/4 of it with total Republican control), we created a net 293,000 jobs over eight years or an average of just over 3,000 per month. In 2010, Obama's monthly average is 144, 667 per month.

    Notice: Data not available: U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics

    Should it be more? Yeh, I think it should be. I think the stimulus should have been spent on infrastructure improvements. That was a missed opportunity to expand job creation.

    However, given the record of the other party over the eight years they had to do things, I don't see how you can believe that they would create jobs? They failed to do it and they failed miserably. What they did do, though, was double the share of wealth held by the top .01% (that's about 30,000 people, you know). And I'm aware that the expansion of wealth isn't a zero sum game. In the 1990s, while income disparity continued to expand - at least the lower quadrants also saw their incomes rise. That was not the case in the 2000s.

    I accept your attempt to debate me, but provide sources and facts, please instead of just spouting talking points. Obama wasn't in office for most of the recession, so blaming him for everything is nothing but mouth-frothing. If you believe he somehow started the recession, please tell me how he was able to do it before taking office.

    Also, do you disagree with the numbers that are showing improvement? They are not VAST improvements, no. But nearly all indicators are up. If we can stabilize the housing market (the scariest of indicators out there), then we'd enter a period of stronger recovery and faster growth.

    Do you disagree with the proposed bill to give tax credits and loan assistance to small business owners? If so, why? Why are Republicans blocking it? What solutions are Republicans offering to improve the economy AND reduce the deficit? How are they going to make my financial life (which, by the way, is quite stable) better (especially considering I'm paying less in taxes now than I was in 2008 under Bush).

    (Link isn't working but all numbers come from the Bureau of Labor Statistics website).

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    Re: A Turning Point For Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    congratulations but what does any of that to the collapse of the economy. I live in TX and TX has created more jobs without the so called stimulus plan. The fact remains 16 million unemployed Americans, think about it and here we are 18 months after the stimulus plan was signed and went into law.
    You said Obama did nothing to create private sector jobs, I gave you an example.

  6. #56
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    Re: A Turning Point For Democrats?

    FilmFestGuy;1058891174]Provide links and fact to back your arguments.
    Why? Obama supporters don't believe facts, GM and Chrysler were bailed out NOT Ford.

    I'm not the one foaming at the mouth. I know that it's imperfect; but it is improving. 2010 has largely seen growth. The greatest concern is still the housing market.
    Where is that growth? BEA.gov is the place to find it so show that growth to us.

    I've provided links to economists and other sources. You merely replied with talking points from right-wing media.
    I have posted links all over this forum. What the hell do you want links to, economic growth, bea.gov, unemployment and employment, BLS.gov, deficit and debt, U.S. Treasury. What do you want and I will provide it.

    If Republicans are going to do something, why are they blocking the bill to give tax incentives and loan assistance to small business owners? I'll give you the answer - because it's politically expediant. They'll sacrifice American jobs and well-being if it means getting back into power.
    Show me the bill that the Republicans blocked that would have given tax incentives and loans to small businesses. Obama doesn't give a damn about saving jobs but he does care a lot about his golf handicap and where he can vacation next. You buy the rhetoric and ignore the actual facts.

    I don't buy my rhetoric from the administration (in fact, I never read a thing from them nor do I watch network news). I get my information from sources like The Economist, The Atlantic, and read the daily news from major news sources (a variety with differing perspectives).
    Then I suggest you start doing some research, the sites I gave you are great places to start.

    If you've read my solutions at all, I've suggested that the best way to improve things is to give tax incentives to businesses who hire and purchase and raise taxes on wealth that is hoarded (American businesses currently hold $1.24 Trillion in cash assets and are just sitting on them).
    Yes, and Obama has done none of that. As for hoarding cash, why wouldn't you as a business person not knowing what your tax burden is going to be to pay for the massive growth in govt including healthcare?

    And, just so you know: Since Obama took office, here are the actual numbers:

    In February, 2009 there were 132,823,000 jobs in America. As of June, 2010, there are 130,470 jobs. That's a net loss of 2.3 million jobs.

    However, since January 2010, there has been a net growth of 868,000 jobs. If we maintain that pace, by the of this year, that would be a growth of 1.7 million jobs in one year. That would mean by this time next year, all lost jobs would be recovered (net) since he took office. To get back to peak job numbers (137,818,000), that would take another three years (if the pace doesn't change). So, assuming the pace doesn't change, Obama would be close to repairing the damage by the end of his term. If the pace improves (most signs point to the fact that it will), then we will have recovered before the end of his term.

    Comparatively, in February, 2001, there were 132,530,000 jobs in America. As stated before in February, 2009, there were 132,823,000 jobs. That means under Bush and the Republican policies that dominated his era (3/4 of it with total Republican control), we created a net 293,000 jobs over eight years or an average of just over 3,000 per month. In 2010, Obama's monthly average is 144, 667 per month.

    Notice: Data not available: U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics
    That is a downright lie, here are the stats from BLS for employment. Bush employment number was 136 million and jumped to 146 million before the recession hit in late 2007 with a Democrat Congress, when he left office it was 143 million and today it is 139 million or a 4 million reduction in the labor force. Suggest someone teach you how to read BLS charts.

    http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/surveymost?ln

    2000 136559 136598 136701 137270 136630 136940 136531 136662 136893 137088 137322 137614
    2001 137778 137612 137783 137299 137092 136873 137071 136241 136846 136392 136238 136047
    2002 135701 136438 136177 136126 136539 136415 136413 136705 137302 137008 136521 136426
    2003 137417 137482 137434 137633 137544 137790 137474 137549 137609 137984 138424 138411
    2004 138472 138542 138453 138680 138852 139174 139556 139573 139487 139732 140231 140125
    2005 140245 140385 140654 141254 141609 141714 142026 142434 142401 142548 142499 142752
    2006 143142 143444 143765 143794 144108 144370 144229 144631 144797 145292 145477 145914
    2007 146032 146043 146368 145686 145952 146079 145926 145685 146193 145885 146483 146173
    2008 146421 146165 146173 146306 146023 145768 145515 145187 145021 144677 143907 143188
    2009 142221 141687 140854 140902 140438 140038 139817 139433 138768 138242 138381 137792



    Should it be more? Yeh, I think it should be. I think the stimulus should have been spent on infrastructure improvements. That was a missed opportunity to expand job creation.

    However, given the record of the other party over the eight years they had to do things, I don't see how you can believe that they would create jobs? They failed to do it and they failed miserably. What they did do, though, was double the share of wealth held by the top .01% (that's about 30,000 people, you know). And I'm aware that the expansion of wealth isn't a zero sum game. In the 1990s, while income disparity continued to expand - at least the lower quadrants also saw their incomes rise. That was not the case in the 2000s.
    Conservatives don't care how much you and others make in the private sector, why don't you care how much people in the public sector make and how rich Congressional Representatives are.

    I accept your attempt to debate me, but provide sources and facts, please instead of just spouting talking points. Obama wasn't in office for most of the recession, so blaming him for everything is nothing but mouth-frothing. If you believe he somehow started the recession, please tell me how he was able to do it before taking office.
    Obama was in the Congress and Congress controls the legislative process. Blaming it all on Bush ignores the fact that we pay Congressional Representatives huge salaries so what did we get for that expenditure?

    Also, do you disagree with the numbers that are showing improvement? They are not VAST improvements, no. But nearly all indicators are up. If we can stabilize the housing market (the scariest of indicators out there), then we'd enter a period of stronger recovery and faster growth.
    What improvement, cash for clunkers, first time home buyers, and massive expansion of govt, were short lived and transfer payments from taxpayers. They grew the economy in the short term but we are paying for it now. Limited benefit and growth.

    Do you disagree with the proposed bill to give tax credits and loan assistance to small business owners? If so, why? Why are Republicans blocking it? What solutions are Republicans offering to improve the economy AND reduce the deficit? How are they going to make my financial life (which, by the way, is quite stable) better (especially considering I'm paying less in taxes now than I was in 2008 under Bush).
    (Link isn't working but all numbers come from the Bureau of Labor Statistics website).[/QUOTE]

    I don't believe anyone is paying less in taxes now than they were under Bush, Federal Taxes that is. I know of no bill the Republicans are blocking as the Democrats can pass anything they want in the House so show me that bill.
    Last edited by Conservative; 08-01-10 at 07:37 PM.

  7. #57
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    Re: A Turning Point For Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnWOlin View Post
    You said Obama did nothing to create private sector jobs, I gave you an example.
    Guess I have to be totally specific with an Obama supporter, after spending trillions we have 16 million unemployed Americans and another 3 trillion added to the debt. Could those jobs have been created by another economic direction? I apologize for saying that no jobs were created but I'll tell you only in the public sector can one spend trillions of dollars and still have 16 million unemployed and still keep the job.

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    Re: A Turning Point For Democrats?

    I'm not saying he completely solved the problem, in fact I think overall the job situation has much less to do with who is in power than people really think. If McCain were President right now we would be in a similar predicament. Spain, Germany, Japan, etc to some extent have it worse than we do right now however, acting as if though Obama has done nothing to help is a little ridiculous.

    The funny thing is conservatives don't bitch when the government jobs have to do with law enforcement or military but when it has to do with infrastructure, medicine, etc then GTFO?

  9. #59
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    Re: A Turning Point For Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Why? Obama supporters don't believe facts, GM and Chrysler were bailed out NOT Ford.

    Where is that growth? BEA.gov is the place to find it so show that growth to us.

    I have posted links all over this forum. What the hell do you want links to, economic growth, bea.gov, unemployment and employment, BLS.gov, deficit and debt, U.S. Treasury. What do you want and I will provide it.

    Show me the bill that the Republicans blocked that would have given tax incentives and loans to small businesses. Obama doesn't give a damn about saving jobs but he does care a lot about his golf handicap and where he can vacation next. You buy the rhetoric and ignore the actual facts.

    Then I suggest you start doing some research, the sites I gave you are great places to start.

    Yes, and Obama has done none of that. As for hoarding cash, why wouldn't you as a business person not knowing what your tax burden is going to be to pay for the massive growth in govt including healthcare?

    That is a downright lie, here are the stats from BLS for employment. Bush employment number was 136 million and jumped to 146 million before the recession hit in late 2007 with a Democrat Congress, when he left office it was 143 million and today it is 139 million or a 4 million reduction in the labor force. Suggest someone teach you how to read BLS charts.

    Conservatives don't care how much you and others make in the private sector, why don't you care how much people in the public sector make and how rich Congressional Representatives are.

    Obama was in the Congress and Congress controls the legislative process. Blaming it all on Bush ignores the fact that we pay Congressional Representatives huge salaries so what did we get for that expenditure?

    What improvement, cash for clunkers, first time home buyers, and massive expansion of govt, were short lived and transfer payments from taxpayers. They grew the economy in the short term but we are paying for it now. Limited benefit and growth.

    (Link isn't working but all numbers come from the Bureau of Labor Statistics website).
    I don't believe anyone is paying less in taxes now than they were under Bush, Federal Taxes that is. I know of no bill the Republicans are blocking as the Democrats can pass anything they want in the House so show me that bill.[/QUOTE]

    Amid complaints about high taxes and calls for a smaller government, Americans paid their lowest level of taxes last year since Harry Truman's presidency, a USA TODAY analysis of federal data found.
    Tax bills in 2009 at lowest level since 1950 - USATODAY.com

    I wasn't the only one (obviously) - the vast majority of Americans paid less in 2009 than they did in 2008 or any other years recently. And that's gauges as a percentage of their income - not a reduction as a whole due to the recession.

    So, if you didn't pay equal or less, then you either have a bad accountant, make a LOT of money (a lot more than the average American) or you're lying about your own taxes.

    You are aware that GDP has grown now for three consecutive quarters, right? That's called a recovery.

    And while jobs were lost in 2009, they are improving in 2010. Yes stimulus is responsible for some it, but it wouldn't have happened without it (as I've already pointed out).

    And I didn't lie. I got the numbers for non-farm jobs directly from here at the BLS website, and the numbers I used are also used here:

    Jobs created during U.S. presidential terms - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    And here's the bill that Republicans are filibustering in the Senate that would aid small business owners:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/30/us...cs/30cong.html

    Despite, by the way, that it's supported by US Chamber of Commerce among other pro-business organizations.

    McConnell claims its because Democrats are restricting the amendment period - but it's simple (considering several Republicans were in on the writing of the bill). They simply don't want to let Democrats pass a good bill for the people (I'm sure there are flaws, but every bill is flawed - every one that's ever been passed) for political expedience.

    The worse we do, the better it is for Republicans. Republicans want the country to continue to fail so they can gain power. It's all they want.

    But simply put, you have an agenda to make things worse than they are now.

    I've used GPD numbers, job creation numbers from the BLS, etc. I have not once argued that things are hunky-dorey. They're not. There's still work to do. But GM, Chrylser, and Ford all reported profits. And yes, Ford didn't take the bailout - but how well would they have done if their suppliers had gone under because those suppliers also worked for GM and Chrysler? Ford didn't take money, but they benefited through indirect ways from the bailout. Do you think all the suppliers would have stayed afloat with 2/3 of their customers gone?

    I don't like a lot of things that have gone on. I'm just sick of the hyperbole and the sudden love for the party whose policies drove the nation to its knees in the first place.

    Again, the Tea Party (and what bothers me about it, is they weren't complaining about spending until now - instead of complaining about it when Republicans were driving the deficit u pat extraordinary rates) is like an abused wife returning home to the abuser because because they're unhappy with the social worker.

    I'm sorry, but Michelle Bachmann and Rand Paul are NOT the answer to this nation's woes.

    The answers lie in getting people together to discuss ideas, test some things out, restructure the entire nature of our system, both politically and economically. Rand Paul might have some ideas. Michelle Bachmann just wants to issue subpoenas. She's said as much.

    Our biggest problem in our political system is a constantly swinging pendulum of extremes. THAT creates uncertainty which is the enemy of growth. This current political culture is only going to push out Moderate Democrats (who gave the Dems their majority in the House). The Tea Party growth in the Republican Party has courted far right conservatives over more moderate candidates. Put these two together and all you're going to get is gridlock.

    The Tea Party claims to be non-partisan (and I agree that they're probably not fans of many Republicans - but there's been little to no involvement in the Democratic Party to try to get more conservative Dems in office. Were they doing that, they'd probably have more impact. As it is, the 2010 Congress - regardless of which party is in control in the end - will likely end up doing absolutely nothing.

    No one party is going to dominate politics to the degree the Democrats did from the 40s to the 90s. Thus the only way to get things done is to work together and Republicans are throwing out those who will sit down and work with Democrats. The Democrats most likely to lose (in the House at least) are the ones likely most willing to work across the aisle.

    Being willing to work together shouldn't be looked upon as weakness. Currently that's the climate we're in. It's going to make things much worse. Not better.

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    Re: A Turning Point For Democrats?

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnWOlin View Post
    I'm not saying he completely solved the problem, in fact I think overall the job situation has much less to do with who is in power than people really think. If McCain were President right now we would be in a similar predicament. Spain, Germany, Japan, etc to some extent have it worse than we do right now however, acting as if though Obama has done nothing to help is a little ridiculous.

    The funny thing is conservatives don't bitch when the government jobs have to do with law enforcement or military but when it has to do with infrastructure, medicine, etc then GTFO?


    Funny thing is that you don't seem to understand who pays for ALL Govt. jobs and apparently don't understand what our Constitution requires, read it and get back to me especially the part about Provide for the Common Defense which means the military. If all we had was the military then we would have a 600-700 billion dollar budget instead of a 3.8 trillion dollar budget. you really ought to read the U.S. Treasury site sometime and see where our dollars are going. Tell me what you think the role of the govt. is? By the way police departments are funded locally not by federal dollars.

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