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Thread: Oliver Stone: 'Jewish-Dominated Media' Prevents Hitler from Being Portrayed 'in Conte

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    Re: Oliver Stone: 'Jewish-Dominated Media' Prevents Hitler from Being Portrayed 'in C

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    What did you mean with "When speaking to a Jew"?
    Do you believe that you'd only get a specific reaction on that subject from a person if he is Jewish?
    I think that when speaking to a Jewish person, there is an assumption that you will show contrition for Hitler's actions or that you will find some worthy topics of conversation to be off limits, even if your Jewish friend brings the topic up.

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    Re: Oliver Stone: 'Jewish-Dominated Media' Prevents Hitler from Being Portrayed 'in C

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Both Hitler and Mussolini were socialists, before they were facsists. Facism is based on socialism
    Hitler and Mussolini were fascists. Mussoulini was part of the National Fascist party in Itali. Nazism was a mix of Fascism and nationalism.
    Nazism is a politically syncretic variety of fascism, which incorporates policies, tactics and philosophic tenets from left and right-wing politics. Italian fascism and German Nazism reject liberalism, democracy and Marxism.[67]
    *boldness added by me*
    Source:Nazism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    I know Wikipedia isn't always the most reliable, but the information I cited does come from a source (and you can check it on the webpage).

    Mussolini and hitler were not socialists, they were both fascists. The USSR was socialist, and they were at war with Nazi Germany.
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    Re: Oliver Stone: 'Jewish-Dominated Media' Prevents Hitler from Being Portrayed 'in C

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    OK, so it was the Jews. It was also the gypsies, homos, and assorted others. I just don't see why Jews get elevated to this "MIV" (most important victim) status over all the others.

    And yeah, you most certainly can study Hitler's political goals and methods apart from the Holocaust. The dynamic going on in Nazi Germany and the politics of the world at the time did involve a bigger picture than some jews getting cyanide showers alongside various other victims, despite the Jewish myth that it was all about them.
    You REALLY missed the overall point of my post. The big picture was the brutality and mass killings... the means to the ends that they wanted achieve. The Holocaust was part of these means... a HUGE part. No one is saying that it is all about the Jews... at least I'm not. But being cavalier about the Holocaust is just as incorrect a position as stating that Hitler's entire legacy is about the Holocaust. His brutality was widespread. THAT is his legacy.
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    Re: Oliver Stone: 'Jewish-Dominated Media' Prevents Hitler from Being Portrayed 'in C

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    You REALLY missed the overall point of my post. The big picture was the brutality and mass killings... the means to the ends that they wanted achieve. The Holocaust was part of these means... a HUGE part. No one is saying that it is all about the Jews... at least I'm not. But being cavalier about the Holocaust is just as incorrect a position as stating that Hitler's entire legacy is about the Holocaust. His brutality was widespread. THAT is his legacy.
    I'm not arguing it wasn't. I think we're talking past each other at this point. If you took one snapshot of his regime to portray what kind of regime it was, it would definitely be a snapshot of a concentration camp. However, that doesn't mean that the Holocaust is woven into every aspect of discussion about Hitler. There are issues entirely apart from the Holocaust that can be examined with no regard for what was going on in Auschwitz.

    What I am taking exception to is the idea that to make such examinations without constantly going back to the Holocaust and showing the Jews that you still have sympathy for them, even though they aren't even part of the discussion, you get branded an anti-Semite. And I think anti-Semite card is becoming like any other race card...people are getting tired of hearing it. And soon, there's not going to be a person alive with any vested interest in catering to it anymore.

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    Re: Oliver Stone: 'Jewish-Dominated Media' Prevents Hitler from Being Portrayed 'in C

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    And frankly, while I believe the Holocaust is up there in terms of the magnitude of human atrocity, there are other people in this world who are suffering just as badly, if not worse.
    I've pointed this out earlier on the thread, but it bears repeating: the Jews are not working harder than any other group to stress the horror their people went through. They're just the most successful, for a number of reasons:
    -The purpetrator, Germany, is now on their side. Contrast this with, say, the Armenians, whose unwavering attempts to make more known that about two-thirds of them were slaughtered by the Turks, the Turkish lobby continues to do all it can to defy.
    -The sheer number of them that died. By a huge margin they suffered the worst genocide of all time, and by an even larger margin they were the largest group that Hitler put to death.
    -Hitler was already widely considered a monstrous figure before the Holocaust was even widely known. It's much easier to notice a mass killing when it's done by someone you already hate to begin with.

    I didn't list Jewish influence in the media because if that were part of the explanation, people would have been already paying attention to the Holocaust as it was happening, when escaping Jews were trying to tell the world about what was going on, and the world didn't care to listen. It's pretty hard to believe that the massive Jewish influence in the media suddenly happened immediately after WWII, when it became as embedded in the public conscious as it is today. Yeah, there's disproportionate representation of Jews in the media, but we're talking like 10-15% in the media as opposed to like 2-3% in the general population; they're still a tiny minority.

    I'm just not even moved by the whole topic anymore.
    That's exactly the sentiment that people are trying to extinguish by stressing how horrible the Holocaust was. As I already said, when people don't know or don't care about history, it is doomed to repeat itself. Before the Holocaust, genocides went mostly ignored and unnoticed; now, though they still happen, they are recognized for the monstrosity that they are. It's at least a step forwards.
    You seem to think it's all about "unrelated agendas", whatever those are... but it's just not. Maybe for some people, but most - even the ones who do try to use it to advance such agendas - just want to make sure everyone recognizes it for what it is... which might help the world move towards an environment where it can never happen again.
    Last edited by Dav; 07-27-10 at 08:52 PM.

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    Re: Oliver Stone: 'Jewish-Dominated Media' Prevents Hitler from Being Portrayed 'in C

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    You miss my point entirely. My point is that when speaking to a Jew or about the topic of Hitler, period, it's almost expected that you will speak with a tone of contrition for what Hitler did to the Jews even if the topic isn't about that aspect of Hitler's regime at all.

    And no, I don't identify the Holocaust first and foremost with Hitler. Sorry. I just don't. I tend to identify his military mistakes, inflated and reckless ambitions, occult fascinations and his powerful successes in pulling Germany out of economic ruin in such a short time. The Jews are a secondary issue to the history of WW2 in my perception.
    John Wayne Gacy was a talented clown, but he's most identified as a murderer. The shoe fits.

    The Halocaust was part of WW2, yet not the biggest. I agree with you there. But as far as Hitler's legacy, the Halocaust is absolutely numero uno. Right or wrong, wars get started. Leaders want more power and try to take over other countries. It's not pleasant, but it's not uncommon. Rounding up 6 million Jews, Gypies, Homosexuals and mentally retarded people and killing, torturing, experimenting on them and making lampshades out of their skin is not something one tends to find in the modern world. Not on that scale. Then again, Saddam Hussein is gone.

    I was actually *just* explaining the Halocaust to my 10 and half year old yesterday. Obviously I had to edit what I said for a child's ears. He knows about slavery. He knows about wars. He knows about disease. This effected him like nothing else I've ever explained to him.

    I was raised in the Jewish community and never once heard anyone say it was all about Jews. Never. And the people who taught me the most about the Halocaust still had the numbers tatooed to their arms.

    You're right. You can't have a discussion about Hitler without a nod of sympathy to those who were murdered and those who survived to carry the emotional scars. But why wouldn't you?
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    You guys are weird.

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    Re: Oliver Stone: 'Jewish-Dominated Media' Prevents Hitler from Being Portrayed 'in C

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    That's exactly the sentiment that people are trying to extinguish by stressing how horrible the Holocaust was. As I already said, when people don't know or don't care about history, it is doomed to repeat itself. Before the Holocaust, genocides went mostly ignored and unnoticed; now, though they still happen, they are recognized for the monstrosity that they are. It's at least a step forwards.
    You seem to think it's all about "unrelated agendas", whatever those are... but it's just not. Maybe for some people, but most - even the ones who do try to use it to advance such agendas - just want to make sure everyone recognizes it for what it is... which might help the world move towards an environment where it can never happen again.
    Maybe I am just desensitized to it but I feel like I only ever hear it come up in a select few instances: as a shield against criticism of Jews and as a shield against criticism of Israel. And any time a Jewish coalition needs a platform to speak and wants attention, as in the response to Oliver Stone we heard.

    I know what the Holocaust was. Everyone does. I care that it never happens again. The whole world cared...we went to war and put a stop to it. I just think it's tacky, cras, and kinda dumb to expect contrition from the world for it anymore. It's attention whoring in a way. I just don't care about the holocaust enough anymore to hold Oliver Stone over a barrel about what he said. In fact, as much as I hate to admit it, was rooting for the guy when the slurs about him being an anti-Semite started.

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    Re: Oliver Stone: 'Jewish-Dominated Media' Prevents Hitler from Being Portrayed 'in C

    Quote Originally Posted by StandUpChuck View Post
    You're right. You can't have a discussion about Hitler without a nod of sympathy to those who were murdered and those who survived to carry the emotional scars. But why wouldn't you?
    Because I don't care enough to have any sympathy for them. I didn't put them there. No one in my family put them there. None of my friends put them there. No one I know put them there or gave them those scars. To show sympathy for something I am so removed from would be kinda fake and plastic.

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    Re: Oliver Stone: 'Jewish-Dominated Media' Prevents Hitler from Being Portrayed 'in C

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    I think that when speaking to a Jewish person, there is an assumption that you will show contrition for Hitler's actions or that you will find some worthy topics of conversation to be off limits, even if your Jewish friend brings the topic up.
    I'm not exactly sure why you think that. In my experience, Jews are among the most racial-sensitivity-apathetic ethnicities there are (Asians in general rank up there with them). Maybe you're hanging around the wrong Jews.

    That does remind me of a story though... about my dad, a Cuban refugee, conversing with one of my mom's Jewish relatives. The relative apparently didn't know where he was from, and for some reason felt compelled to talk about what a great guy Fidel Castro was. My dad just sat and listened, and when the guy was done, started talking about all the great things Hitler did for his people. The relative was pretty horrified

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    Re: Oliver Stone: 'Jewish-Dominated Media' Prevents Hitler from Being Portrayed 'in C

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Fascism is an anti-left wing philosophy. I could explain how it is NOT socialism, but this is not the thread for it.
    Actually, you can't. That's the reason you won't. I think you already know that.
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