New Laws Target Workplace Bullying

Generally I don't like for government to stick its nose into anything that can be handled without them, but I don't see this as being too terrible.

Some bosses use their position as an excuse to act like an ass. Some of them enjoy fracking with people under them just because they can. There's entirely too much of this and I wouldn't mind seeing some of it curtailed.

I've been an office manager with 27 employees. While it was difficult at times, I made it a principle not to yell at people, curse or abuse people, no matter how much of a moron they acted like. I would take an offender aside in private, explain what they were doing that was unacceptible, define how to correct the behavior, and (if it seemed necessary) explain what disciplinary action would be forthcoming if the correction were not made.

There's no need to yell and rant and rave and act like a adolescent having a tantrum.

I've had bosses who acted like that and it sucks. Several of them don't know how close they came to getting seriously damaged.

If they come up with a law against abusive bosses, I hope they have the guts to come up with a law against abusive employees. Yes there are bosses with little to no tact or pesonnel management skills. There are also employees who are just as bad. The employee who plays the system, just barely does the job, or tries to find excuses for not completing their job. At times I think its to much of "it is not my fault" attitude and "let's sue".

Sometimes an ass chewing is warrented, sometimes its not. While its targeted for the private sector, can you image some drill sargent being sued because he yelled at a private.

Lord Tammerlain said:

Act professionally and there will be no problem

Act like a 14 year old, and you could get sued

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If an employee bucks up and does his job, he won't have anything to worry about. Personally, I would rather get my ass chewed than get fired. A little yelling never hurt anyone. Anyone that can't take it, might need to grow-up some, then find another job.

apdst said:

If an employee bucks up and does his job, he won't have anything to worry about. Personally, I would rather get my ass chewed than get fired. A little yelling never hurt anyone. Anyone that can't take it, might need to grow-up some, then find another job.

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Maybe a job at a library? No yelling allowed there.

Managers should be allowed to yell at an employee if he has legitimate reason.

Keep in mind some managers have that power issue going on. They'll be assholes for the sake of being an asshole. Trying to provoke a response.

I had a bully manager in my past, asking a fellow employee of mine why she wanted fathers day off since her father was dead. That was years ago, and from what i know, he is still working there.

Yelling is fine. But when attacks go personal it's a huge issue.

apdst said:

If an employee bucks up and does his job, he won't have anything to worry about. Personally, I would rather get my ass chewed than get fired. A little yelling never hurt anyone. Anyone that can't take it, might need to grow-up some, then find another job.

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There is a lot to be said about this thread. I read it from beginning to end (common for me) and I feel I've learned enough of peoples ideas to give me the ability to make a comment that's worth something.

First, an observation. From what I've seen here, the ones who are saying "suck it up" are the ones who yell at people themselves or are in positions of authority while most of the ones supporting the legislation are the low rungs on the ladder. Kinda makes sense, doesn't it?

I also have a degree in insurance and risk management with a minor in finance. I don't think yelling at anyone is necessary. I worked at an airport for many years in an environment that was noisy so you HAD to yell. But being yelled TO and yelled AT are different. That being said, I never liked raising my voice to anyone or having that done to me. Yelling is what immature kids do out on the playground when they don't get their turn on the monkey bars. We are supposed to be a civilized society, so why not act like it? Your employees will look at you as an example. You are supposed to be a professional. Yelling isn't professional. Yelling is much more a reflection of the yeller than the yellie. (is that a word?) If you act unprofessional, they will to.

I feel anyone that yells at another human being for any reason other than to convey a message over a long distance or in a noisy environment is basically being an asshole. They should go yell in the mirror to see how stupid they look. What does volume do? What MUST BE SCREAMED that can't be said in a more, oh, mature volume level? I don't know a word in the dictionary that says "this word must be yelled to be conveyed properly." So the choice to yell at someone is on the person themselves, meaning they are being, singlehandedly, a jackass.

If a boss ever yelled at me I'd laugh in his face because I'd realize that the man *over* me is actually way way under me.

I want to keep my employees, myself.

Haven't lost any in 4 years, and I don't yell at anybody. They are all adults, and sure don't need the grief any more than I do.

I was involved in an argument with a user earlier in this thread and just dropped me to see wazzup. I'm glad to see that, for the most part, cooler heads prevail.

If New York's Healthy Workplace Bill becomes law, workers who can show that they were subjected to hostile conduct — including verbal abuse, threats or work sabotage — could be awarded lost wages, medical expenses, compensation for emotional distress and punitive damages.

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While I am sure that hostile conduct that includes verbal abuse is subject to interpretation, I still think this will be a good law, if it passes. One would think that 'threats or work sabotage' would be universally seen as actionable. Personally, I think this law will put companies on notice: Train your managers. Establish policies and procedures. Enforce them. Too many managers, as a user pointed out earlier, are just clowns who've garnered favor with the powers that be.

Middle Managers are the backbone of every business. There are good ones and bad ones. Managing people is an artform not a bullying contest. Some managers don't see that -- as proven by many of them who posted on these threads. I managed people in my own business for 20+ years. Never yelled. Oh, I could be a real son-of-a-gun, but never once had to get in someone's face. I've never worked for someone like that either. I just can't imagine...

American said:

I actually have a degree in management, and I can tell you that most (in fact a vast majority) managers are worthless and ignorant about people. They avoid personnel issues because they don't know how to handle them, and they put their efforts in all non-personnel management issues. Sure there are bad workers, but the percentage of bad managers is much higher. Management is the only professional career you don't have to be qualified for. Try getting an engineering job without an engineering degree, or an actual accounting job without a degree. Try becoming a physician without medical school or a license. But we have no problem leaving the most important decisions of any organization to unqualified buffoons. Many who got their position merely because they kissed someone's ass.

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It may be that there are bad managers, maybe the boss should yell at them and tell them to get their ass in gear or find a new job. But it doesn't distract from the other side of the argument either. Sometimes people or kids are doing dumb things and they get chewed out because of it. It happens, got some young kids and a fork life...chances are you're gonna have to give a bit of a lecture at some point. We'd all love to believe that it's somehow possible to just sit and talk everything through, but there are times in reality where yelling is fine.

I mean seriously, y'all are making physicists out to look like super men with all this complaining about yelling. We get yelled at from time to time, we get knocked down, we get into arguments; but we keep going. Only 14 hours in a day to do physics. I don't know what it will say for us when the physicists are the toughest hombres in the country.

Ikari said:

There's a professor here who is similar, in fact I work for her now. She's not physically intimidating at all since she's like 5'4"; but man get on her bad side and you're gonna hear about it for awhile. But it's her lab, her rules; so she gets what she wants. And those who have been successful in her lab understand that if you just do your job and do it well, you're fine. That's that. Sometimes it does suck, but it's also not the end of the world. Keep your nose to the grindstone and you're ok. I'm not so fragile as to completely fall apart if I get yelled at.

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But see, I'm not so weak that I would tolerate being yelled at and disrespected by anyone, anywhere, at any time. If you raise your voice to me, you can expect that I will respond in a way that you aren't going to like. It may not be to yell back at you or to return abuse with abuse, but I will respond directly and with enough conviction behind my response to let you know that it's time to cease and desist. I do not tolerate abusive and insecure nutjobs throwing their temper tantrums just because they have a little authority. That little authority they have at work is no invitation for them to assault the dignity of another human being. Period.

Ikari said:

You're that much of a wuss? Jesus Christ, sometimes people don't do their job and you have to yell at them a bit. ****ing get over it. If you don't want to get yelled at, don't do a piss poor job; that's all there is to it. But sometimes it happens and just because it happens doesn't mean that people should get their damned underwear in a knot. I work in research facilities, and there's always yelling in some form. Equipment breaking or programs failing things like that. Also, so PIs will yell at their post-docs and grad students if they aren't putting in at least 14 hours per day 7 days a week.

There can be just yelling for the sake of yelling, and maybe people can work on that. But sometimes a worker gets chewed out when they mess up or under perform and that's that. You may call it unprofessional, but it's also unprofessional to not do your job and cost your employer money.

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no, no, no. if you have to yell, you're not doing it right.

I have a soft management style and prefer to coach. However sometimes you have to be a drill instructor as well when the soft language doesn't get through. Has anyone considered the law of unintended consequences though, yelling at an employee for a royal **** up can if used at the correct time and only when absolutely necessary can be an instantaneous way of letting them know it's time to shape up, so without that mechanism in place wouldn't it lead to employees continuing incorrect until their dismissal? I'm serious about that inquiry.

liblady said:

no, no, no. if you have to yell, you're not doing it right.

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It's actually the other way around. If you get yelled at, you weren't doing your job right.

LaMidRighter said:

I have a soft management style and prefer to coach. However sometimes you have to be a drill instructor as well when the soft language doesn't get through. Has anyone considered the law of unintended consequences though, yelling at an employee for a royal **** up can if used at the correct time and only when absolutely necessary can be an instantaneous way of letting them know it's time to shape up, so without that mechanism in place wouldn't it lead to employees continuing incorrect until their dismissal? I'm serious about that inquiry.

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Why not just tell them they royally ****ed up sans the yelling?

rivrrat said:

Why not just tell them they royally ****ed up sans the yelling?

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Depends on the situation. If someone makes an error on paperwork because their sales are down it's easy to fix, they have insurance for that and the commissioner of insurance will be fine with it as long as the problem gets taken care of. If they commit fraudulent actions I have ten times the work to fix it, take damage to my reputation as well as can be liable for some of it legally dependant on my actions and could lose some of my companies; I'd say I have a right to be pretty pissed in that situation. Or think of people who work with heavy equipment, lack of attention could lead to loss of life or limb, a simple "you shouldn't do that" probably won't get the message across as an explitive laden shout out.

LaMidRighter said:

I have a soft management style and prefer to coach. However sometimes you have to be a drill instructor as well when the soft language doesn't get through. Has anyone considered the law of unintended consequences though, yelling at an employee for a royal **** up can if used at the correct time and only when absolutely necessary can be an instantaneous way of letting them know it's time to shape up, so without that mechanism in place wouldn't it lead to employees continuing incorrect until their dismissal? I'm serious about that inquiry.

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I am the same way. I tend to become a mentor to the people I am in charge of. If they continue to mess up after I have coached them, than I will start enforcement procedures to let them know I am serious about whatever it is I am telling them. So far I have only had to do that once though. I find that if I explain the bigger picture to people and relate it to their daily routine and how they fit in and can influence the overall structure, I can get a lot of trust out of them. Once I get their trust, its pretty easy to keep them on task as most people just want a little guidance.

megaprogman said:

I am the same way. I tend to become a mentor to the people I am in charge of. If they continue to mess up after I have coached them, than I will start enforcement procedures to let them know I am serious about whatever it is I am telling them. So far I have only had to do that once though. I find that if I explain the bigger picture to people and relate it to their daily routine and how they fit in and can influence the overall structure, I can get a lot of trust out of them. Once I get their trust, its pretty easy to keep them on task as most people just want a little guidance.

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Oh, I agree. Usually I don't get furious unless it's just obvious that someone is intentionally not pulling their weight or being dishonest. I find that soft guidance gets hundreds of times better response than yelling.

LaMidRighter said:

Oh, I agree. Usually I don't get furious unless it's just obvious that someone is intentionally not pulling their weight or being dishonest. I find that soft guidance gets hundreds of times better response than yelling.

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I agree, if someone yells at me I will behave the same way as if they simply told me what I did wrong, except with the yelliing I will also be angry at them too. However, I am going to do whatever is needed to fix the problem no matter how they let me know that there is a problem.

megaprogman said:

I am the same way. I tend to become a mentor to the people I am in charge of. If they continue to mess up after I have coached them, than I will start enforcement procedures to let them know I am serious about whatever it is I am telling them. So far I have only had to do that once though. I find that if I explain the bigger picture to people and relate it to their daily routine and how they fit in and can influence the overall structure, I can get a lot of trust out of them. Once I get their trust, its pretty easy to keep them on task as most people just want a little guidance.

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I have a very hands off management approach. I give everyone their tasks or I let them select the tasks among themselves. They have a meeting with each other every morning and a meeting with me on Monday mornings sometime around 10AM where they give me updates on where they are with their projects. When they complete a project, I meet with them one on one to go over it's functionality, test it myself, and create a plan for full deployment. Then I let them deploy whatever it is, per my instructions.

Other than that, I don't want to hear anything about what they're doing and I am sure they don't much care to hear from me either. :shrug:

@ Jallman -- Great management style. Cultivate good people and then get out of their way.

jallman said:

I have a very hands off management approach. I give everyone their tasks or I let them select the tasks among themselves. They have a meeting with each other every morning and a meeting with me on Monday mornings sometime around 10AM where they give me updates on where they are with their projects. When they complete a project, I meet with them one on one to go over it's functionality, test it myself, and create a plan for full deployment. Then I let them deploy whatever it is, per my instructions.

Other than that, I don't want to hear anything about what they're doing and I am sure they don't much care to hear from me either. :shrug:

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I think you and I are around different employees. The people I am in charge of are not professional IT people. They are supervisors and production workers (I am in IT, but I also am in charge of manufacturing projects as part of my management training program since there's not much IT stuff to do around here). And generally those guys are intimidated by guys in management and feel that they have little control over their situation. Trust is a huge thing with them and if they see that you are not against them and are willing to treat them like they have some worth, they will be grateful and productive in what you give them. My hope (and my boss's hope too) is to develop them and see who has the hidden talents we can use for the betterment of them and the company.

Your approach is how my boss handles me though. I am given a task. I meet with him every morning at 9 with the rest of the staff for progress reports as we see fit to give them and we notify him when we are done. I enjoy the freedom in that environment, but not everyone has the self confidence to flourish in it.

megaprogman said:

I think you and I are around different employees. The people I am in charge of are not professional IT people. They are supervisors and production workers (I am in IT, but I also am in charge of manufacturing projects as part of my management training program since theres not much IT stuff to do around here). And generally those guys are intimidated by guys in management and feel that they have little control over their situation. Trust is a huge thing with them and if they see that you are not against them and are willing to treat them like they have some worth, they will be greatful and productive in what you give them. My hope (and my boss's hope too) is to develop them and see who has the hidden talents we can use for the betterment of them and the company.

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Probably a different breed of employee for sure. But it sounds like they have the same attitudes. What's funny is that this department was falling apart under our old boss and it was because there was a lot of micromanagement and passive aggressive abuse that was going on. It crippled morale and undermined any confidence the guys had in their own ability. Within a week of giving them free reign to actually do their jobs, the change was noticed in other departments.

People don't need to be coddled or treated like children. And they certainly don't need to be abused. My management philosophy is that you accomplish so much more if you have power with people rather than you do by having power over them.

jallman said:

I have a very hands off management approach. I give everyone their tasks or I let them select the tasks among themselves. They have a meeting with each other every morning and a meeting with me on Monday mornings sometime around 10AM where they give me updates on where they are with their projects. When they complete a project, I meet with them one on one to go over it's functionality, test it myself, and create a plan for full deployment. Then I let them deploy whatever it is, per my instructions.

Other than that, I don't want to hear anything about what they're doing and I am sure they don't much care to hear from me either. :shrug:

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Pretty much the way I've dealt with members on my team. I tell them what's expected, make sure they have the tools to do that, and then leave them the **** alone until they get it done.

jallman said:

People don't need to be coddled or treated like children. And they certainly don't need to be abused. My management philosophy is that you accomplish so much more if you have power with people rather than you do by having power over them.

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It depends on where they are. Some people want to be micromanaged and some do not. Thats not what its about though. What we are trying to do with this plant is to push autonomy down to the lowest levels and develop production processes that give the employees enough information to make the every day decisions. The reason for this is that with the right training and information, the employees can take care of many small problems themselves and we don't have to put out as many fires on the management level. However, the culture of the organization right now is very top down and part of my task is to help change it to more of a bottom up one where the employees can help make decisions about their work environment, but these are not empowered people right now. So, my management style reflects that. I give them small jobs where they can make decisions, find out who the natural leaders are, put them in charge of the next project, under my supervision, see what pans out, but the whole time I am watching and seeing who can be handled less over time.

Essentially my boss is doing the same with me. He keeps giving me larger projects to see what I can do and doesn't provide supervision as I have already proven that I do not need it (I think at one point I went a month without telling him anything and he did not care since nobody was complaining about my work).

A bosshole can yell at me if they lose their cool. I'm not paying any attention to him/her anyway. When they are finished, I go to HR and file a written complaint. I file complaints when I have witnessed said bosshole berating some other employees. It doesn't take very long, and poof, they magically disappear.

I inherited a good strong 112 dB yell from my Father. I'll use it as a last resort, but I hate to see a person turn into a worm.

Mickey Shane said:

A bosshole can yell at me if they lose their cool. I'm not paying any attention to him/her anyway. When they are finished, I go to HR and file a written complaint. I file complaints when I have witnessed said bosshole berating some other employees. It doesn't take very long, and poof, they magically disappear.

I inherited a good strong 112 dB yell from my Father. I'll use it as a last resort, but I hate to see a person turn into a worm.

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When I find out you started crying to HR, that's when you start getting all the crap or impossible tasks that you can't manage and my own documentation of your every failure starts, all with the goal of doing you in swiftly and efficiently. If you can't be man enough to handle it in the department, then you can't work on my team and I'll be damned if I will shuffle you off onto some other department. You got to go. And go now.