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Thread: TARP Audit Questions Rush to Close Auto Dealers

  1. #11
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    Re: TARP Audit Questions Rush to Close Auto Dealers

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    Actually, GM still went into banruptcy, just Chapter 11 which allowed them to restructure their debts vice Chapter 7 which would have forced them to close their doors.

    The point here is the government didn't force GM or Chrysler to close these dealerships, and if people would take just alittle bit of time to review the facts of the matter what they'd learn is that the government actually reduced the number of dealerships these auto companies were trying to close! So, as much a folks would like to think this is all the government's fault, the reality is they saved GM/Chrysler jobs while giving them a "loan" to keep an American auto company solvent which allowed them to restructure and remain competitive.
    Who isn't my point - that they were closed hurt the job market and put more people than was needed out of work, is my point. In retrospect - those dealerships may still have closed AFTER or during the bankruptcy process, that doesn't mean those that closed earlier was a good idea. And I don't know all the facts as to what the government did or did not influence with these closings. Is there some Government memo's out or statements from GM stating the Fed didn't tell them to close these dealerships?
    “I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on what’s being proposed here, he’d agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute.” - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: TARP Audit Questions Rush to Close Auto Dealers

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Sokay. But nothing you posted proves the closing of dealerships prevented the bankruptcy.
    You're getting desperate on this one dude. The report that the conservatives on here are holding high said that thses cuts were needed. GM and Chrysler were already planning them to save money.

    It's possible that maybe they could have been fine if they had waited alittle longer to close the dealerships down, but hindsight is 20/20 and this was going to happen eventually, as well as that the longer they waited the more money they lose and the more tax dollars they would need in assistance..

    As objective voice pointed out, they didn't even close down as many as GM and Chrysler originally wanted to.

    What is your complaint here? Exactly how do you think this should have been handled?

  3. #13
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    Re: TARP Audit Questions Rush to Close Auto Dealers

    Quote Originally Posted by roughdraft274 View Post
    You're getting desperate on this one dude. The report that the conservatives on here are holding high said that thses cuts were needed. GM and Chrysler were already planning them to save money.
    What report - can you direct me to something ?

    Quote Originally Posted by roughdraft274 View Post
    It's possible that maybe they could have been fine if they had waited alittle longer to close the dealerships down, but hindsight is 20/20 and this was going to happen eventually, as well as that the longer they waited the more money they lose and the more tax dollars they would need in assistance..
    Sure it's possible... but I don't know that it would have happened eventually. What information do you have that leads you to that conclusion?

    Quote Originally Posted by roughdraft274 View Post
    As objective voice pointed out, they didn't even close down as many as GM and Chrysler originally wanted to.
    Who's "they"? Chrysler, the Fed or the person put in charge of the bankruptcy?

    Quote Originally Posted by roughdraft274 View Post
    What is your complaint here? Exactly how do you think this should have been handled?
    I guess my complaint is you and OV have such clear understanding and nod your heads that these closings were inevitable, required, and would have happened anyway. I just don't see it ... maybe you can help educate me as to what leads you to those conclusions. Everything I've read doesn't...
    “I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on what’s being proposed here, he’d agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute.” - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: TARP Audit Questions Rush to Close Auto Dealers

    Quote Originally Posted by roughdraft274 View Post
    The whole move was to prevent a bankruptcy of GM and Chrysler. It worked.
    No it didn't. Obama was saving the unions the rest of the people did not matter

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    Re: TARP Audit Questions Rush to Close Auto Dealers

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Who isn't my point - that they were closed hurt the job market and put more people than was needed out of work, is my point. In retrospect - those dealerships may still have closed AFTER or during the bankruptcy process, that doesn't mean those that closed earlier was a good idea. And I don't know all the facts as to what the government did or did not influence with these closings. Is there some Government memo's out or statements from GM stating the Fed didn't tell them to close these dealerships?
    so, let me see if i understand what your position actually is
    you are critical of Obama because he did not loan more money to the auto makers so that they could subsidize excess dealerships which were not economically viable
    in short, you wanted the government to fund the continued empoyment of people in jobs which were not financially sustainable without the government money
    what other forms of national socialism are you wanting Obama to embark on?
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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    Re: TARP Audit Questions Rush to Close Auto Dealers

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    so, let me see if i understand what your position actually is
    you are critical of Obama because he did not loan more money to the auto makers so that they could subsidize excess dealerships which were not economically viable
    in short, you wanted the government to fund the continued empoyment of people in jobs which were not financially sustainable without the government money
    what other forms of national socialism are you wanting Obama to embark on?
    Nope you didn't get it right. I'm asking questions and not necessarily being critical. I'm asking how closing down dealerships saved Chrysler as was stated. I'm asking who made the decision to close the dealerships when they did? I'm asking how could putting people out of work at that time, helps our economy?

    Sorry you see it as being critical of Obama and while I understand your protectionism of all things Obama - I don't know that this has anything to do with him. Perhaps we can start by pointing me to all the information that apparently some in this thread leads them to conclude these dealership closings were good, necessary, inevitable and saved Chrysler / GM. Can you do that?

    You see, asking questions isn't being critical.
    “I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on what’s being proposed here, he’d agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute.” - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: TARP Audit Questions Rush to Close Auto Dealers

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    What report - can you direct me to something ?
    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/19/bu...html?src=busln

    The report by Neil M. Barofsky, the special inspector general for the Troubled Asset Relief Program of the Treasury Department, said both carmakers needed to shut down some underperforming dealerships.... About a year ago, G.M. informed more than 2,000 dealers that some or all of their franchise agreements would not be renewed in October 2010. Chrysler eliminated 789 dealers, or about a quarter of its network, with less than a month’s notice....Both carmakers voluntarily rescinded some terminations — 666 at G.M. and 50 at Chrysler...In addition, a small number of dealerships won the opportunity to be reinstated through an arbitration process created by Congress; that process has only a handful of cases left to consider and is scheduled to be completed by the end of this month.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Sure it's possible... but I don't know that it would have happened eventually. What information do you have that leads you to that conclusion?
    They didn't know exactly what would happen either, which is why they wanted to be safe and make sure that these car companies could survive and come out of this mess. They were playing it safe, maybe you could argue, which I would hardly call a bad thing or bash someone for.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Who's "they"? Chrysler, the Fed or the person put in charge of the bankruptcy?
    See the first part. They as in the car companies.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    I guess my complaint is you and OV have such clear understanding and nod your heads that these closings were inevitable, required, and would have happened anyway. I just don't see it ... maybe you can help educate me as to what leads you to those conclusions. Everything I've read doesn't...
    Well, since the car companies were already panning to close them to try and save money, and because this report that is referenced in the new york times, from the link, said that they needed to shut down some under-performing dealerships etc.

    I see no reason to buy into your theory that the government wants to just put as many people as possible on unemployment, as you suggested in your first post on this thread.

    I don't see any reason to question they're actions. Closing down the under-performing dealerships that cost them money would be one of the first steps that I would think any competent CEO of a car company would do if they were losing money and weren't profitable. During good years I'm sure they made enough to allow those under-performing dealerships that were losing money to live off of surplus profits from other dealerships, but not during a recession.

    It seems like a smart move from every way i look at it and I think the only possible criticism is that they reacted too quickly, which is possible, but then again maybe they reacted just in time.

    One thing I'm sure about, if Obama would have came in and said that they weren't allowed to cut any of the dealerships that were losing them money all the conservatives would be bitching about how he has no idea to run a country or a business for that matter. It's sickening how they find a way to attack regardless of whether he chooses a,b,c or d.

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    Re: TARP Audit Questions Rush to Close Auto Dealers

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Nope you didn't get it right. I'm asking questions and not necessarily being critical. I'm asking how closing down dealerships saved Chrysler as was stated. I'm asking who made the decision to close the dealerships when they did? I'm asking how could putting people out of work at that time, helps our economy?

    Sorry you see it as being critical of Obama and while I understand your protectionism of all things Obama - I don't know that this has anything to do with him. Perhaps we can start by pointing me to all the information that apparently some in this thread leads them to conclude these dealership closings were good, necessary, inevitable and saved Chrysler / GM. Can you do that?

    You see, asking questions isn't being critical.
    ok, i will accept your point that your post is one only seeking information and you are not being critical of Obama because he failed to fund economically unviable jobs
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

  9. #19
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    Re: TARP Audit Questions Rush to Close Auto Dealers

    Quote Originally Posted by roughdraft274 View Post
    Thanks for the link.

    Quote Originally Posted by roughdraft274 View Post
    Well, since the car companies were already panning to close them to try and save money, and because this report that is referenced in the new york times, from the link, said that they needed to shut down some under-performing dealerships etc.
    The article does state the car companies were planning to close these dealerships before the bankruptcy filing... but under-performing dealerships are closed all the time. It doesn't say exactly when they decided to do it but the article leads one to believe it was during the filing. It might be that the company knew they were going to file Chapter 13 and pre-emptively cut, but it's not clear to me from the link provided.. the methods were also called into question as well as the timing.

    Quote Originally Posted by roughdraft274 View Post
    I see no reason to buy into your theory that the government wants to just put as many people as possible on unemployment, as you suggested in your first post on this thread.
    I was being a tad facitious. However the article states it quite plainly:

    Quote Originally Posted by NY Times
    “It is not at all clear that the greatly accelerated pace of the dealership closings during one of the most severe economic downturns in our nation’s history was either necessary for the sake of the companies’ economic survival or prudent for the sake of the nation’s economic recovery,” the report said.

    Quote Originally Posted by roughdraft274 View Post
    I don't see any reason to question they're actions. Closing down the under-performing dealerships that cost them money would be one of the first steps that I would think any competent CEO of a car company would do if they were losing money and weren't profitable. During good years I'm sure they made enough to allow those under-performing dealerships that were losing money to live off of surplus profits from other dealerships, but not during a recession.
    My reason to question is again, in the article you linked:

    Quote Originally Posted by NY Times
    About a year ago, G.M. informed more than 2,000 dealers that some or all of their franchise agreements would not be renewed in October 2010. Chrysler eliminated 789 dealers, or about a quarter of its network, with less than a month’s notice.

    Both carmakers voluntarily rescinded some terminations — 666 at G.M. and 50 at Chrysler — which, the report said, “suggests, at the very least, that the number and speed of the terminations was not necessarily critical to the manufacturers’ viability.”

    In addition, a small number of dealerships won the opportunity to be reinstated through an arbitration process created by Congress; that process has only a handful of cases left to consider and is scheduled to be completed by the end of this month.

    According to the report, Chrysler estimated it would save $45,500 for every dealership it closed, while G.M. projected a savings of $1.1 million a dealership, largely a result of reduced incentive payments. “The difference in these estimates alone casts doubt on their credibility,” the report said.

    Quote Originally Posted by roughdraft274 View Post
    It seems like a smart move from every way i look at it and I think the only possible criticism is that they reacted too quickly, which is possible, but then again maybe they reacted just in time.
    In general it's good business to keep efficiencies up. However the report calls into question the timing, which I also would question.

    Quote Originally Posted by roughdraft274 View Post
    One thing I'm sure about, if Obama would have came in and said that they weren't allowed to cut any of the dealerships that were losing them money all the conservatives would be bitching about how he has no idea to run a country or a business for that matter. It's sickening how they find a way to attack regardless of whether he chooses a,b,c or d.
    Personally, both company's should have filed Chapter 13 and received no bailout. If they went out of business then so be it. However, since that didn't happen, I have to say the article creates more questions than it answers. Again, it identifies in no way that the closings of these dealerships was the reason they pulled out of the bankruptcy or prevented bankruptcy.
    “I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on what’s being proposed here, he’d agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute.” - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: TARP Audit Questions Rush to Close Auto Dealers

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Thanks for the link.

    The article does state the car companies were planning to close these dealerships before the bankruptcy filing... but under-performing dealerships are closed all the time. It doesn't say exactly when they decided to do it but the article leads one to believe it was during the filing. It might be that the company knew they were going to file Chapter 13 and pre-emptively cut, but it's not clear to me from the link provided.. the methods were also called into question as well as the timing.

    I was being a tad facitious. However the article states it quite plainly:






    My reason to question is again, in the article you linked:




    In general it's good business to keep efficiencies up. However the report calls into question the timing, which I also would question.

    Personally, both company's should have filed Chapter 13 and received no bailout. If they went out of business then so be it. However, since that didn't happen, I have to say the article creates more questions than it answers. Again, it identifies in no way that the closings of these dealerships was the reason they pulled out of the bankruptcy or prevented bankruptcy.
    companies cannot file chapter 13. that is the provision in bankruptcy law for WAGE EARNERS
    compaies can file under chapter 7 to liquidate and go out of business or they can file under chapter 11, and attempt to work out of their problems. the latter option was chosen and it appears to have been a wise choice
    now, what is it you think Obama should have done differently regarding the automakers' situation
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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