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The End of Men

Goshin said:
I prefer a woman who wants to DO things with me, than one who wants to sit nearby, watch, and make pleasant but insincere admiring noises while she repaints her nails.
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And that's where most people seem to be these days. . . I think the notions that "men should do ___ and women should do ___" are all archaic and rarely the norm, now. It's perfectly acceptable and even encouraged for everyone to deal with things 50/50 or something like that within a relationship.

And Catz - it's true. He'll never look at you the same way again, or any woman for that matter, now that he knows he can be the one sitting around doing nothing while the woman in his life does all the work. :lol:
I screwed myself being resourceful and 'do it all!' - Last year I wanted to buy a new dining room table (someone was selling it at a yardsale for $150 - SO CHEAP!) and my husband looked at what I wanted and said "You can make one CHEAPER than that and better looking, too." :( There goes me EVER being able to buy NEW furniture.

See - be capable, resourceful and independent! But not too much. :)
 
Mell said:
Thats another thing. It is hardly pro womens rights, that we have had to learn to negotiate in a way that suits men, rather than in a way that is more natural for women. What would have been fair, is if work places had such culture of gender equality, that both types of negotiation are understood.

Some say, to reduce this obstacle to gender equality, a price tag should be associated with each type of job, and that it is not up for negotiation.
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I don't know any "types" of negotiation. I just tell them what I'm willing to work for and they either match it, or they don't. It's perfectly natural. Many times, when they give me a price, I tell the other company bidding for me what the competing company has offered, so on and so forth. This is how I get the most pay I can at any given time.

Catz Part Deux said:
One thing I've noticed is that guys in fields like law enforcement and the military often have the least traditional views in this regard, because they're used to working side by side with women in their field, and seeing women perform the same work. It's odd, but the more masculine the work is, the less insecure they seem to be about female equality.

I've noticed this in the guys that I work with (and my boyfriend is military). it doesn't hold true for all, but if you think about it, the military was racially integrated far before the rest of private industry was.
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Indeed. My first attempt at working on the river was met with a wall of sexism since women were extremely the minority on the river. I was put through hell while they tried to make me quit. Which, of course, meant that I was NEVER going to. No matter what they did. LOL But that was ONE company. Next season, A new company, new attitude. The guys didn't cut us any slack - and it was hard physical labor. And most of us didn't expect anyone to cut us any slack. ( I will not say ALL because there were some pansy ass whiney princesses there on occasion later on - though they didn't last long) We did our jobs, there was no gender issue. I listened to the 'locker-room talk' and participated in it. They gave me ****, I gave them ****. One thing I will say, though, is that the guys were fiercely defensive of "their girls". But our divisions were not gender related, but rather company related. (22 different river companies, all of us claiming to be the best ;) ) The "us against them" was one company against another.

When I switched companies again like 7 years later, I was told by the river manager hiring me that his company was "a boy's club". I just smirked. "Pfffttt... bring it on." He said I'd fit in just fine. ;)
 
Catz Part Deux said:
And you know what? That's done us more harm than it has good. It sets us apart from our peers. They can't be themselves around us. It creates an artificial and stilted environment that makes people less efficient and makes the workplace much more hostile for everyone involved.

I LIKE sexual banter in the office.
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I had a sign on my wall in one office that said "Sexual harrassment will not be reported. But it will be graded."


Catz Part Deux said:
Girl, you think that offends me? Heh. Look at my profile.
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Hell yeah. :mrgreen: My sis and I rock out to this song. ;)

 
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:rofl
Some people don't realize that quite a few of us women have no interest in being a "classic" woman or a "June Cleaver" type. . . and thus trying to use what we do approve of in an insult begs more to a compliment and misses the mark.

Someone, somewhere around here, tried to cut me down by saying I wasn't very "ladylike" . . . me sitting in my dirty combats clickin away at the keyboard was deeply amused by that one.
 
Goshin said:
On the whole though, I've liked more of my bossladies than bossmen. I'm not sure if I can even explain why, other than to say Hey, Goshin likes the womenfolks better than menfolks. :mrgreen:
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One of the owners of one of the river companies I worked for told me that if he could get away with hiring ALL women as guides, he would. He said he felt we were much better guides than men because we were "nicer" to the guests, more patient, more understanding, less aggressive and competitive with them. But aside from that, he felt that DUE to our *in general* physical strength inferiority, we were forced to actually be better guides. Some of the guys (certainly not all) were able to "muscle" their way down the river. The gals, for the most part - due to either lack of that kind of strength and/or being smarter ;) - would finesse our way down the river. Which one knew the river better? The finesser. We USED the water, the rocks, the varying currents to our advantage. We knew the river like the back of our hand and could read it and finesse it at any water level. The folks who relied on muscle to get down didn't know the currents nearly as well. He said that a female guide makes it "look easy" as we expend far less energy and effort, while the "muscle guy" is working his ass off with not as good results. LOL

But, that was just his take on it. ;)
 
Aunt Spiker said:
:rofl
Some people don't realize that quite a few of us women have no interest in being a "classic" woman or a "June Cleaver" type. . . and thus trying to use what we do approve of in an insult begs more to a compliment and misses the mark.

Someone, somewhere around here, tried to cut me down by saying I wasn't very "ladylike" . . . me sitting in my dirty combats clickin away at the keyboard was deeply amused by that one.
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I've been called a lot of names, but a "lady" has never been one of them. Thank god. :lol:
 
VanceMack said:
Im sure he wont...he will look at you and say...you know...when i saw you up there...sweating...bending over...hauling that plywood and roofing tiles...I swear...its all I could do to keep from...

See...Im sorry...but thats SEXY...
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Don't be sorry. But really, it wasn't that sexy. It was June. In Florida. I was sweaty and gross and dirty and disgusting.
 
rivrrat said:
I've been called a lot of names, but a "lady" has never been one of them. Thank god. :lol:
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:rofl I was cussing alot - apparently a typical male considers that to be unladylike. Duly noted . . . moving on :rofl
 
rivrrat said:
I've been called a lot of names, but a "lady" has never been one of them. Thank god. :lol:
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Since "lady" is code for "female who conforms to the traditional gender role stereotypes of a patriarchal society", I consider it an insult.
Luckily, nobody's ever tried to call me one.
I think I'm too little to be a "lady". Ladies are tall.
I'm more like an oompa-loompa than a lady. :lol:
 
AWE! Oompa Loompa's had classy talent!
 
Introduction to academia: find an incredibly attractive headline and exaggerate your main point to differentiate yourself from the other writers in order to receive success. Some women historians (who were also women) felt the need to suggest history was literally hisstory, which had somewhat of a point, but they felt the need to really dramatize their point like a good academic would, by suggesting men (as a whole) have purposefully done women a great disservice in regards to the study of history.

That being said, meh. I am still irritated to hear stories of good ladies I know complain about how their bosses promote the newer men when they are more knowledgeable about the business's inner-workings, and that they treat them differently because of their gender. For some places, I do believe women are treated worse than men in business, and that does irritate me. However, I'm no cheerleader for you girls. Nor am I feeling like I need to really defend my sex.
However, it does make me smirk when I see someone discuss how horrible it was for women throughout history, when if we really get down to it, depended upon time and place. There was such a thing as women quite content with their place in society. This does not mean that there was not plenty of desire to move up during points in history, or perhaps with specific groups of people (ex., women public intellectuals, women activists in the 19th century who felt that marriage would be the end of their careers-and rightly so), but we do have to accept that there were plenty of women who could not join women who wanted to get more in the way other "liberal" or "progressive" women desired, or for that matter, how we would feel about it.
 
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Fiddytree said:
There was such a thing as women quite content with their place in society.
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Sure - there are always people who accept how the world *is* without questioning or considering it.

But why they accepted it (as in - they felt they had no choice or they believed that fighting it was futile) and whether or not they *really* felt ok/not ok or if it was just a skin-deep show is something we don't know and can only mull over.
 
Catz Part Deux said:
Don't be sorry. But really, it wasn't that sexy. It was June. In Florida. I was sweaty and gross and dirty and disgusting.
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OK...you say so...but sweaty...hot...ya just made me tingle! ;-)

Just kidding...but Im betting your guy felt that way!
 
rivrrat said:
WTF? Since when?

Look, I'm all about the individual and I don't blame my tits for any lower pay. (quite the opposite, actually *ahem*) I blame individuals for their lack of negotiating skills to get higher pay, regardless of their gender. My pay IS equal to men in my position.

But to say that women don't do the same work is utter bull****. I've worked in male dominated fields most of my life and I did the same goddamn work the guys did.
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Yea I know we all have our little stories about how that isn't true from our niche in life but on average men work more hours then women.

http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/career/20050307a1.asp

Here is another that cites a lot of reasons why women earn less.

Ask Dr. Salary: Women Earn Less Than Men, but Why?
 
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Mell said:
What exactly is your point here? It does not count, if something worse can be found? I dont know if this is utter carelessness about women and their rights on your part, or just poor debating skills.
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Many of you have exaggerated the claims of the position of women, often neglecting to mention, that men were in an equal or worse position in society.

You are all playing guilt by association.
Assuming that because it was accepted that men could beat their wife's, that it was very common.
You have no data to prove this.
 
Dr_Patrick said:
It's hard to believe that in 2010 there are people who still perpetuate such stereotypical and utterly sexist views about women. One would think that everyone would be cheering the fact that women are finally reaching equal ground in some areas.
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Read the information I posted.
Then do some research on how women, generally, choose lower paying fields and are also more likely to work part time.

Please show me how I am being sexist.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
Yea I know we all have our little stories about how that isn't true from our niche in life but on average men work more hours then women.

Why men earn more than women

Here is another that cites a lot of reasons why women earn less.

Ask Dr. Salary: Women Earn Less Than Men, but Why?
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It's hard to draw conclusions about male/female equality when you look at data sets which are too wide. More women than men stay home and do child-rearing duties, which skews the data on hours worked and female earning progress.

For women who work in the same fields as men, with similar educations, women often earn more than men, particularly in large urban areas. I'd say that pay parity has almost been achieved, and that the disparity exists primarily as a result of individual choices (i.e., opting out of career for the "mommy track.")
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
Read the information I posted.
Then do some research on how women, generally, choose lower paying fields and are also more likely to work part time.

Please show me how I am being sexist.
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I wasn't referring to you specifically.
 
Men versus Women in the post industrial era:

economix-07generationpay-custom1.jpg


Picture is worth a thousand words, and all.

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/07/07/do-you-earn-more-than-your-parents-did/

As you can see, most men today earn less than equally educated men in 1979, with the exception of the most highly educated. The opposite is true for women: Most women today earn more than their equally educated counterparts from 1979, with the exception of the least educated.
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