Egyptian minister: Obama told me he is a Muslim

TheNextEra said:

Are you saying there is absolutely NO possibility that the Egyptian official is either lying or misunderstood and this Egyptian official is to be taken 100% by his word?

If you say yes to any of that, send me $100,000 cause I'm Jesus and you would then be gullible enough to buy that.

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Remember, people like ptif219 believe what they wish to be true rather then what history, facts, logic and God's Gift to Man, REASON, suggest.

ptif219 clearly believes that Obama is a Muslim based on the secondary source of a questionable Israeli website that provides no actual hard evidence of its claims.

Amusing how those to defended Bush aganist all kinds of whackjob attacks have no problem engaging in the same attacks on Obama. You'd think they'd realize what they were doing...but then again, public education in America is piss poor! What do you expect?

ptif219 said:

Then you are calling the Egyption Official a Liar?

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How about answering his question, first? Would you agree that this "Obama is a Muslim" thing is a retarded conspiracy theory?

lizzie said:

I honestly don't care what religion he is, but if this story true, it just confirms that he is a liar, and a liar for political motives at that. That puts him somewhere at the level of pond scum to me. If one can't be honest about themselves, then they either have no character or they are delusional. Neither one is a positive trait imo. If a person isn't willing to risk their political aspirations to be open and honest, then he's not worth my admiration.

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Yeah, you are right and I agree, if Obama indeed were a Muslim and had been lying about it his entire life, then yes, that would be extremely dishonest.

I just find it fascinating that someone could even begin to believe a so patently absurd conspiracy theory based on hearsay written on some dubious website. I mean, really.

ptif219 said:

Nice try but I showed that some Muslim organizations say one thing but believe another. Spin if you want but the truth is we can not tell if these groups really dislike the terrorists. Funny how you bring uo Jews

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Ok. You say Muslims don't condemn terrorism. I show you that's wrong. Then you say that doesn't make a difference, because they are lying.

It seems Muslims can only do wrong. Either they are horrible, because they don't condemn terrorism, and when they do, they are even more horrible, because they lie. Seems you have made up your mind already and there is no way any Muslim could ever act in a manner that would change your stereotyping hatred.

Glinda said:

I don't know that he ever "claimed" it, but y'know, when you say **** like this....








:doh

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Don't forget this:

Incredibly, President George W. Bush told French President Jacques Chirac in early 2003 that Iraq must be invaded to thwart Gog and Magog, the Bible’s satanic agents of the Apocalypse.

Honest. This isn’t a joke. The president of the United States, in a top-secret phone call to a major European ally, asked for French troops to join American soldiers in attacking Iraq as a mission from God.

Now out of office, Chirac recounts that the American leader appealed to their “common faith” (Christianity) and told him: “Gog and Magog are at work in the Middle East…. The biblical prophecies are being fulfilled…. This confrontation is willed by God, who wants to use this conflict to erase his people’s enemies before a New Age begins.” (...)

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Council for Secular Humanism

zimmer said:

You call that a church?


It took 2 weeks for Americans to see what Obama didn't in 20-years.
Wright makes similar sounds as Farrakhan and Malcolm X.

I pretty much agree with his take on Libs though.
FORA.tv - Malcolm X: Address to the Ford Hall Forum
Audio only.
.

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It's always funny when self-declared Christians attack each other, accusing them of "not being real Christians". Nobody who's on the outside will ever understand that.

And no, I don't see anything in that video that would be any more weird or unreasonable than what you hear in any random other church.

ptif219 said:

Then you are calling the Egyption Official a Liar?

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Not necessarily. He could've misunderstood. He could've mishood. The blogger could be lying. The blogger could've misunderstood. The blogger could've misrepresented. Etc.

OMG Obama is a muslim!! I know its true because it was on some random website on the INTERNET!

This thread is a great example of people believing what they want to despite evidence and reason. In this case, that Obama is a muslim.

megaprogman said:

OMG Obama is a muslim!!

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If he is, it's shown a few things.

First, he lied to the American people about his faith and is hiding his true faith - probably because he knows that a majority of Americans do not want a President of the United States who is a Muslim. Second, he's trying to hide it. Third, such a faith may be affecting his foreign policy where Israel / Palestine is concerned. Fourth, it's not affecting the killing of Al Qaeda members apparently.

megaprogman said:

I know its true because it was on some random website on the INTERNET!

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Nile-TV is not a "random website" but the 2nd News Network of Egypt.
Nile TV - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Spinning and dismissing doesn't work well on the interwebz.

megaprogman said:

This thread is a great example of people believing what they want to despite evidence and reason.

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Evidence and reason are not one in the same. The evidence as you call it, in this case shows a quotation from the Egyptian FM who stated:

"The American President told me in confidence that he is a Muslim," said Egyptian Foreign Minister Ahmed Aboul Gheit on Nile TV. Link

The evidence so far is one sided: Egypt's FM says Obama told him he (Obama) is (not was) a Muslim. It's unknown how it was meant but that's the quoted claim. I see no evidence to the contrary that such statement was taken out of context, was a figurative statement or was a misquote. :shrug: There's also some verbal slip ups where Obama says "My Muslim faith" and then corrects himself to state "my Christian faith" - faux pas? Ok. But the evidence claiming Obama is a Muslim is mounting... that doesn't make it true, it just means the evidence is mounting.

Did Obama pick a Church in Washington D.C. yet? :think:

Ockham said:

If he is, it's shown a few things.

First, he lied to the American people about his faith and is hiding his true faith - probably because he knows that a majority of Americans do not want a President of the United States who is a Muslim. Second, he's trying to hide it. Third, such a faith may be affecting his foreign policy where Israel / Palestine is concerned. Fourth, it's not affecting the killing of Al Qaeda members apparently.



Nile-TV is not a "random website" but the 2nd News Network of Egypt.
Nile TV - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Spinning and dismissing doesn't work well on the interwebz.

Evidence and reason are not one in the same. The evidence as you call it, in this case shows a quotation from the Egyptian FM who stated:

"The American President told me in confidence that he is a Muslim," said Egyptian Foreign Minister Ahmed Aboul Gheit on Nile TV. Link

The evidence so far is one sided: Egypt's FM says Obama told him he (Obama) is (not was) a Muslim. It's unknown how it was meant but that's the quoted claim. I see no evidence to the contrary that such statement was taken out of context, was a figurative statement or was a misquote. :shrug: There's also some verbal slip ups where Obama says "My Muslim faith" and then corrects himself to state "my Christian faith" - faux pas? Ok. But the evidence claiming Obama is a Muslim is mounting... that doesn't make it true, it just means the evidence is mounting.

Did Obama pick a Church in Washington D.C. yet? :think:

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As I said. People will pick up any "evidence" they want which gives credit to their preconceived notions. Right now, there is no context to this and it should be taken with a grain of salt. I have a hard time believing that someone with Obama's background is a muslim, given that there is extensive evidence of him being Muslim since he has done some serious No-nos according to that faith. Such as going to a Christian church for worship, swearing in on a bible, etc.

Also, I can see much to be gained for the muslim world by concluding that Obama is in fact muslim. It would provide a pride and cultural "one-up" and that alone is reason to cast suspician on this claim.

Also, Egypt doesn't exactly have freedom of the press, so political considerations (the "one-up") will play a very real role in this sort of thing. As it is, given that it is not a free media, I have no reason to believe it any more than I do a tabloid.

megaprogman said:

As I said. People will pick up any "evidence" they want which gives credit to their preconceived notions.

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That's not what you said, you made an off-hand remark that made it seem as though this was some random internet site making the claim - it was not. Also, what is Egypts Foreign Ministers "preconcieved notion" for stating what he said on Egypts News network and how are people who question that statement now lumped in with some agenda? Taken on face value - either it's true or a lie. So far, no one's claiming it's a lie that's showing rebuttal evidence.

megaprogman said:

I have a hard time believing that someone with Obama's background is a muslim, given that there is extensive evidence of him being Muslim since he has done some serious No-nos according to that faith.

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Being a Muslim is not all or nothing - there are good Muslims and bad Muslims according to the faith. It's the same in every religion ... some are stricter and more religious than others. Father Chukla drank like a fish when I was a kid and in his earlier years was known to visit a "red light" district to "save souls" - though we all knew he was dipping the stick in the pond. :shrug:

megaprogman said:

Also, I can see much to be gained for the muslim world by concluding that Obama is in fact muslim. It would provide a pride and cultural "one-up" and that alone is reason to cast suspician on this claim.

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Ok... if in fact he is a Muslim it would I think, be the end of his Presidency one way or the other here in America.

megaprogman said:

Also, Egypt doesn't exactly have freedom of the press, so political considerations (the "one-up") will play a very real role in this sort of thing. As it is, given that it is not a free media, I have no reason to believe it any more than I do a tabloid.

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Fine. It doesn't change anything and I'm not here to convince you. I'm simply stating the facts and rejecting your previous post which was pure political damage control and pro-Obama spin.

i have proof Obama can fly

Amazing how there's so many pictures of Obama doing all sorts of recreational activities. He must be having a wonderful time getting in this much fun.

Ockham said:

That's not what you said, you made an off-hand remark that made it seem as though this was some random internet site making the claim - it was not. Also, what is Egypts Foreign Ministers "preconcieved notion" for stating what he said on Egypts News network and how are people who question that statement now lumped in with some agenda? Taken on face value - either it's true or a lie. So far, no one's claiming it's a lie that's showing rebuttal evidence.

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I stand by my offhand remark. I wasn't commenting on the preconceived notions of the guy from Islam. I was referring to certain people here. I really don't care what this guy thinks because I have no way of knowing whether he is being honest or if his remarks are politically motivated.

Ockham said:

Being a Muslim is not all or nothing - there are good Muslims and bad Muslims according to the faith. It's the same in every religion ... some are stricter and more religious than others. Father Chukla drank like a fish when I was a kid and in his earlier years was known to visit a "red light" district to "save souls" - though we all knew he was dipping the stick in the pond. :shrug:

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One of the very basics of Islam is that you profess your faith. Not doing that and calling yourself a muslim would be like not believing Jesus Christ and calling yourself a christian. There are some firm lines.

Ockham said:

Ok... if in fact he is a Muslim it would I think, be the end of his Presidency one way or the other here in America.

Fine. It doesn't change anything and I'm not here to convince you. I'm simply stating the facts and rejecting your previous post which was pure political damage control and pro-Obama spin.

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It probably would destroy his career, but I would like some solid evidence that it was true. Perhaps a picture of him praying or evidence of him performing the hajj, etc. But no this isn't damage control. What would be the point of damage control on a forum where people have already made up their mind? I like to think I am a little smarter than what you are accusing me of here.

Ultimately, there are some people who are going to believe what they want to, no matter what reality and evidence presents (the people here commonly referred to as hacks) and there are people here who are reasonable (I like to think that you Ockham are one of those people). I was laughing at the hacks because they deserve to be laughed at. In no way was I trying to make a greater point because right now, in the absense of evidence, there is none to be made.

TheNextEra said:

Are you saying there is absolutely NO possibility that the Egyptian official is either lying or misunderstood and this Egyptian official is to be taken 100% by his word?

If you say yes to any of that, send me $100,000 cause I'm Jesus and you would then be gullible enough to buy that.

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I am saying Obama has a history of lying and deceiving so I do not believe Obama

obvious Child said:

Remember, people like ptif219 believe what they wish to be true rather then what history, facts, logic and God's Gift to Man, REASON, suggest.

ptif219 clearly believes that Obama is a Muslim based on the secondary source of a questionable Israeli website that provides no actual hard evidence of its claims.

Amusing how those to defended Bush aganist all kinds of whackjob attacks have no problem engaging in the same attacks on Obama. You'd think they'd realize what they were doing...but then again, public education in America is piss poor! What do you expect?

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Wrong I say Obama is a liar and can not be believed. He claimed to be Christian when he went to a racist church for 20 years. Then claimed he did know the church was racist. Obama has a history that shows he can not be believed and he has no credibility

German guy said:

Ok. You say Muslims don't condemn terrorism. I show you that's wrong. Then you say that doesn't make a difference, because they are lying.

It seems Muslims can only do wrong. Either they are horrible, because they don't condemn terrorism, and when they do, they are even more horrible, because they lie. Seems you have made up your mind already and there is no way any Muslim could ever act in a manner that would change your stereotyping hatred.

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Nice try but your sources condemn terrorism when they also support it in other ways show the deception in SOME Muslim organizations

Zyphlin said:

Not necessarily. He could've misunderstood. He could've mishood. The blogger could be lying. The blogger could've misunderstood. The blogger could've misrepresented. Etc.

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So Obama the great speaker is not clear? :lamo

megaprogman said:

I stand by my offhand remark. I wasn't commenting on the preconceived notions of the guy from Islam. I was referring to certain people here. I really don't care what this guy thinks because I have no way of knowing whether he is being honest or if his remarks are politically motivated.



One of the very basics of Islam is that you profess your faith. Not doing that and calling yourself a muslim would be like not believing Jesus Christ and calling yourself a christian. There are some firm lines.



It probably would destroy his career, but I would like some solid evidence that it was true. Perhaps a picture of him praying or evidence of him performing the hajj, etc. But no this isn't damage control. What would be the point of damage control on a forum where people have already made up their mind? I like to think I am a little smarter than what you are accusing me of here.

Ultimately, there are some people who are going to believe what they want to, no matter what reality and evidence presents (the people here commonly referred to as hacks) and there are people here who are reasonable (I like to think that you Ockham are one of those people). I was laughing at the hacks because they deserve to be laughed at. In no way was I trying to make a greater point because right now, in the absense of evidence, there is none to be made.

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Given a presumption that Obama, if he were actually a Muslim, wants or continues to want to hide evidence that he is a Muslim (I know that's a lot of if's) - I doubt you'll get evidence of Obama at a hajj or on a prayer rug... as it's contrary to "keeping it a secret". Why would he keep it a secret? You've stated why - because you also believe it would end his Presidency - therefore your need to have such evidence will not occur. But you already knew that by saying you'd need such evidence - right?

And I agree - hacks will use whatever evidence or hits of evidence to further an agenda and Obama is a huge target - as any President would be. I'm more curious as to why this Egyptian FM - if the quote is correct - would say such a thing to the press as the FM said himself - what was said is "in confidence". Surely there's some motivation there either for or against Obama as it's not clear which is at work. Israel may use it against him, the Muslim world may see it as a "positive" for Obama. Domestically here in the U.S., it'd go badly, so I doubt we'll find out anything for another 50 years when Obama's long gone and a FOIA (if they still exist) is petitioned.

ptif219 said:

So Obama the great speaker is not clear? :lamo

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Well yes, quite possibly. Considering I don't believe him to be a great speaker, but a great speech maker, I think its definitely possible. Even with the greatest of speakers too its possible when you're putting foreign individuals together.Not to mention that's the far more realistic and logical option than Obama telling some random state official in some random other country a secret that somehow every political opponent and his own parties political vetters somehow managed to never turn up in his 10+ years of running for public office.

Zyphlin said:

Well yes, quite possibly. Considering I don't believe him to be a great speaker, but a great speech maker, I think its definitely possible. Even with the greatest of speakers too its possible when you're putting foreign individuals together.Not to mention that's the far more realistic and logical option than Obama telling some random state official in some random other country a secret that somehow every political opponent and his own parties political vetters somehow managed to never turn up in his 10+ years of running for public office.

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Wit Obama's history of lying and deceiving you can say that? You must be joking

Ockham said:

Given a presumption that Obama, if he were actually a Muslim, wants or continues to want to hide evidence that he is a Muslim (I know that's a lot of if's) - I doubt you'll get evidence of Obama at a hajj or on a prayer rug... as it's contrary to "keeping it a secret". Why would he keep it a secret? You've stated why - because you also believe it would end his Presidency - therefore your need to have such evidence will not occur. But you already knew that by saying you'd need such evidence - right?

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Contrary to what you seem to think. I am not trying to precounter arguments. I am simply stating what I am thinking and nothing beyond or around that. You are correct that at the end of that series of ifs, there is a possible conclusion that Obama is a Muslim. However, I cannot get past the idea that a devout religious person is going to lie about their religion and risk seriously pissing off their deity, especially when apostasy (denying the faith) is a HUGE sin in Islam. Hes pretty much buying himself a ticket to hell, according to that belief system. It makes no sense to me.

The other possibility is that he is not a strong muslim, but is a weak one. But again, the argument still stands, if his believe or commitment is so weak that he sees no problem in hiding it, than I have doubts about the authenticity of his faith at all. Doubts to the point that if someone has such a weak hold than they are probably are not going to use their religion in any real way when it comes to the decisions they make. This is a possibility, but if he does turn out to be this kind of muslim, he is really no different than an uncommited Christian, atheist, or anything, because his decisions are going to be based on another rationale. There is no reason to care.

However, this is the way I really look at it. People have been trying to find a way to delegitimize Obama since before he took office with the birther stuff, the scary socialism stuff, and probably some other things I am not thinking of at the moment. All of it turned out to be pretty silly in the end. Given past behavior, I see no reason to take these sorts of people's arguments with any sort of credibility because "proof" has been found for all the other silly stuff he has been accused of. Because of that, I am going to raise the bar on what I will accept.

Ockham said:

And I agree - hacks will use whatever evidence or hits of evidence to further an agenda and Obama is a huge target - as any President would be. I'm more curious as to why this Egyptian FM - if the quote is correct - would say such a thing to the press as the FM said himself - what was said is "in confidence". Surely there's some motivation there either for or against Obama as it's not clear which is at work. Israel may use it against him, the Muslim world may see it as a "positive" for Obama. Domestically here in the U.S., it'd go badly, so I doubt we'll find out anything for another 50 years when Obama's long gone and a FOIA (if they still exist) is petitioned.

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The way I see it, with all the stuff that happened at the blockade the last few weeks, everyone is a little on edge and in that sort of atmosphere, people have been known to either make up or exaggerate these sorts of things. Right no, the citizens of Egypt and other mostly Muslim countries are pretty pissed off about what went down and a little comment like this can do lots to pacify people if they think that the US is a little less antagonistic towards them. Having a Muslim president would serve well to pacify people.

However, if you will notice, I am speculating, as we all are at this point. Nobody really knows anything because there is a lack of satisfactory evidence at this point. But hacks are gonna do what hacks do.

Ockham said:

If he is, it's shown a few things.

First, he lied to the American people about his faith and is hiding his true faith - probably because he knows that a majority of Americans do not want a President of the United States who is a Muslim. Second, he's trying to hide it. Third, such a faith may be affecting his foreign policy where Israel / Palestine is concerned. Fourth, it's not affecting the killing of Al Qaeda members apparently.

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AH yes, the usual Truther method. Don't actually accuse, but make sure you get those "what if" rants in.

Nile-TV is not a "random website" but the 2nd News Network of Egypt.
Nile TV - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Spinning and dismissing doesn't work well on the interwebz.

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Funny you did not link to the Nile TV show that this happened on. No one seems to be able to find any evidence it happened. This would be like me claiming that Obama said he is the Antichrist on CBS, Saying that CBS exists is not evidence that Obama actually said anything like that.

Faulty logic fails miserably on the internets.

Evidence and reason are not one in the same. The evidence as you call it, in this case shows a quotation from the Egyptian FM who stated:

"The American President told me in confidence that he is a Muslim," said Egyptian Foreign Minister Ahmed Aboul Gheit on Nile TV. Link

The evidence so far is one sided: Egypt's FM says Obama told him he (Obama) is (not was) a Muslim. It's unknown how it was meant but that's the quoted claim. I see no evidence to the contrary that such statement was taken out of context, was a figurative statement or was a misquote. :shrug: There's also some verbal slip ups where Obama says "My Muslim faith" and then corrects himself to state "my Christian faith" - faux pas? Ok. But the evidence claiming Obama is a Muslim is mounting... that doesn't make it true, it just means the evidence is mounting.

Did Obama pick a Church in Washington D.C. yet? :think:

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There is still nothing more than some Israeli op-ed and blogs claiming this to be the case. The first report of it was a blog, and nothing since has offered an actual link to his actual words, or to the show itself. Even if it was said, that still leaves many layers of possible misunderstanding or lying that have nothing to do with Obama.

ptif219 said:

Wit Obama's history of lying and deceiving you can say that? You must be joking

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Absolutely. Because, as you see, he has a HISTORY of it. There's a history there because its been found out, seen, exposed, proven, etc.

Yet at the same time we're supposed to believe that for the vast majority of his life and his decade in public office that he has managed to completely and utterly keep secret from everyone possible that he was a muslim to the point of being able to assure that there could be no solid proof what so ever that would be found by his own party that vets their candidates nor the multitude of opposition that digs for dirt on a person, including when he was running for the highest office in all the land.

So he's managed to keep something like that secret while openly lying about it on a national stage while having every spot light from his party and the opposing party put on him without having anything with a shred of credibility come to light to prove that the notion is true...

....but that he goes ahead and just says it to a random Egyptian politician?

Wonderful. Do you have an ebay account. I have this great piece of Florida real estate for you that I'd love to sell you for a bargain price.

Redress said:

AH yes, the usual Truther method. Don't actually accuse, but make sure you get those "what if" rants in.

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If you had more of a rebuttal I'd appreciate it... that's what happens when things are hidden and we can't discuss facts--- supposition by definition is a "what if". Is this where I claim the "ahh yes, the typical progressive talking points..." blabla? At least rebut with substance.

Redress said:

Funny you did not link to the Nile TV show that this happened on. No one seems to be able to find any evidence it happened. This would be like me claiming that Obama said he is the Antichrist on CBS, Saying that CBS exists is not evidence that Obama actually said anything like that.

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It's not for lack of looking - but if you find it and post it I'm sure there will then be the standard whining of the "translation", context, misinterpretation and "Obama didn't mean it that way", not to mention the call of question into the agenda and seeded conspiracy theories of Israel underminding Obama due to the snub last month by Obama at the White House. Did I miss anything?

Redress said:

Faulty logic fails miserably on the internets.

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So does not actually debating, blindly apologizing and making partisan excuses. Perhaps actually discussing the evidence that is available is beyond your scope due to your political beliefs. :shrug:

Redress said:

There is still nothing more than some Israeli op-ed and blogs claiming this to be the case. The first report of it was a blog, and nothing since has offered an actual link to his actual words, or to the show itself. Even if it was said, that still leaves many layers of possible misunderstanding or lying that have nothing to do with Obama.

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There we go... they're lying, or it was a misinterpretation. A faux pas, fault in wording or translation...

When you find the facts that it's a lie or misinterpretation, let me know. Until then, I'll stay neutral instead of blindly believing the quote is true. A position you may want to adopt instead of putting up the defensive walls of excuses.