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Thread: Egyptian minister: Obama told me he is a Muslim

  1. #191
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    Re: Egyptian minister: Obama told me he is a Muslim

    Quote Originally Posted by Glinda View Post
    BINGO. (Technically, /thread. Thanks Zyph.)

    One's religious beliefs (or lack thereof) are completely unimportant and unacceptable where our government is concerned. They have no legitimacy in our nation's form or function, yet they reportedly have been used/abused by the leader of the free world to instigate and champion a fruitless and deadly war of choice.

    I don't know how many times I need to repeat this for it to sink in, but I'll give it one more try and then I'm out:

    Followers of Organized Religion: Please do keep your "faith" (whatever it might be, and more power to you) to yourselves, but do NOT include me, my government, my President, OR my nation in your "beliefs."

    We have laws against that.
    Actually, you're so wrong here its kind of sad. There's never been in any way shape or form any kind of ban on disallowing ones religious views to guide ones vote, either for a candidate or for a bill. There is no location anywhere within the constitution or any founding document that details or restricts what forms of philosophies one must use or not use when determining the rationale behind how they view the world and what they think is best for the country. The only thing that is disallowed is the official establishment of an individual state church. If I believe killing is bad because of my religious views, and there is a bill that would make killing someone a capital offense, and I wanted to vote for it because it because my religion tells me killing is bad and thus I agree with this bill there is absolutely nothing unconstitutional about such a thing. It is no different under the constitution and under the law then if I believed killing was bad due to Platonic philosophy and thus voted for it. What would be a violation is if you instead tried to push a law specifically stating "It will be illegal to violate the sixth commandment" as that is instilling a specific and definitive grouping of religions into official capacity.

    Peoples faiths, beliefs, religions, philosophies, and other such things are more than welcoming to be involved and included within their, their government, their presidents, or their nations belief structure as to how things should be done...what it can not be is institutionalized in such a defined and exact way as to force others to actually forcibly participate in said religion through the official or defacto set up of a state religion.

  2. #192
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    Re: Egyptian minister: Obama told me he is a Muslim

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Actually, you're so wrong here its kind of sad. There's never been in any way shape or form any kind of ban on disallowing ones religious views to guide ones vote, either for a candidate or for a bill. There is no location anywhere within the constitution or any founding document that details or restricts what forms of philosophies one must use or not use when determining the rationale behind how they view the world and what they think is best for the country. The only thing that is disallowed is the official establishment of an individual state church. If I believe killing is bad because of my religious views, and there is a bill that would make killing someone a capital offense, and I wanted to vote for it because it because my religion tells me killing is bad and thus I agree with this bill there is absolutely nothing unconstitutional about such a thing. It is no different under the constitution and under the law then if I believed killing was bad due to Platonic philosophy and thus voted for it. What would be a violation is if you instead tried to push a law specifically stating "It will be illegal to violate the sixth commandment" as that is instilling a specific and definitive grouping of religions into official capacity.

    Peoples faiths, beliefs, religions, philosophies, and other such things are more than welcoming to be involved and included within their, their government, their presidents, or their nations belief structure as to how things should be done...what it can not be is institutionalized in such a defined and exact way as to force others to actually forcibly participate in said religion through the official or defacto set up of a state religion.
    Not intending to get into a quarrel about the US Constitution, and I don't think what you say is necessarily wrong ... but isn't one major ideal in the Western World the freedom of religion, which means there must be no policies that favor one religion over another, or one over atheism? And should a President, although he may not legally be required, at least try to be a President for the entire people, Christians, atheists or believers in another faith alike?
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

  3. #193
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    Re: Egyptian minister: Obama told me he is a Muslim

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    There's never been in any way shape or form any kind of ban on disallowing ones religious views to guide ones vote, either for a candidate or for a bill.
    Never said there was.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    There is no location anywhere within the constitution or any founding document that details or restricts what forms of philosophies one must use or not use when determining the rationale behind how they view the world and what they think is best for the country.
    Never said there was. The problem arises when the leader of our nation chooses to wage war against an independent sovereign nation based on "God told me to."

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Peoples faiths, beliefs, religions, philosophies, and other such things are more than welcoming to be involved and included within their, their government, their presidents, or their nations belief structure as to how things should be done..
    FFS. I'll say it one more time r e a l l y s l o w l y for those who are clearly incapable of grasping the point:

    Dear Everybody, Including the President: Please do believe anything you wish; adhere to any faith, belief, religion, or philosophy you wish, none of it means diddly to me. I don't give a crap if you worship dung beetles and dance nekkid under the moonlight to appease Zeus in your own private world, but when a government official attempts to use his/her faith, belief, religion, or philosophy as an acceptable or legitimate justification for needlessly sending thousands to their deaths in a war of choice, I've got a BIG problem with that.

    Here's a little truth test for you; let's see how honest you really are:

    If Obama had said out loud, in front of an audience, "God speaks through me" you (and Fluffy Ninja and anyone else who gives Bush a pass on this) would be having coronaries over it.

    Please, PLEASE try to deny that one.

  4. #194
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    Re: Egyptian minister: Obama told me he is a Muslim

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    Not intending to get into a quarrel about the US Constitution, and I don't think what you say is necessarily wrong ... but isn't one major ideal in the Western World the freedom of religion, which means there must be no policies that favor one religion over another, or one over atheism? And should a President, although he may not legally be required, at least try to be a President for the entire people, Christians, atheists or believers in another faith alike?
    The general theory is in a representative republic we're voting for people we think are going to govern in such a way that we'll like and will better our country. Which means when we nominate them we nominate all of them, not just their logical side or just their practical side or just their philosophical side. Just like someone may vote for a candidate because they're black and they think will be able to identify with black individuals better and shape laws that better understand their position in life so to could you say that about someone that's a muslim, or christian, or athiest. And neither is necessarily wrong.

    Indeed, its absolutely unrealistic to suggest that you can or will remove religion 100% from politics because for the vast majority of people in this country their religion greatly affects them even on a subconscious level. Their views on things, their morals, their ethics, their world view all may very well be shaped by their religion and to suggest religion must be removed from it completely is to essentially ask them to completely rewrite their world view, morals, and belief system. Such a thing is just generally not possible, especially in a one day turn around between running for office and being elected.

    One of the Western World is freedom of religion, that anyone can practice whatever religion they feel privately without the government keeping them from doing it or forcing them to participate in another religion. However having ones religion affect their views and their policies is not against freedom of religion, no more than if we substituted "Talmud" with "Works of John Locke". While there can be disputes made about how heavily Christian some of the founders were it would be an absolute, 100%, bold faced lie to not suggest many of them were religious in some fashion and that said religion in many ways affected their philosophies, views, morals, and thoughts in regards to governance.

    In my eyes a President in a representative Republic should do what he feels is best for the country based on his own views/thoughts/beliefs with a mindful ear and eye turned to what his constituents desire. What I do not believe should happen is that a President actively try to act contrary to what his principles/thoughts/views/beliefs are, the very things likely represented through his speech and his campaigning and thus which helped him get elected, because those things may offend some people as doing so would then betray and deceive the majority population that voted him into office.

    For example, I would expect a person who ran a campaign while making his unquestionable Athiesm central to his belief structure in regards to how government should reign to not get into office and then vote against a bill allowing gay marriage because some religions find it offensive and the government shouldn't be mandating something religions find offensive. If he did do that then I would fully understand and support the outcry of his constituents because one of the factors about the man that they believed shaped his views and beliefs and thus would shape his policy was thrown to the way side, doing a disservice to his constituency that voted him into office. Likewise, if a person ran a campaign making his christian values and principles a key focus as to how he thinks the world works and what is moral or not I do not expect him to go into office and go pass a bill allowing gay marriage. Again, if he did, like the Athiest, I'd have no issue with his constituents being upset with him for presenting a false image of what guides his beliefs regarding what should be legal or not. In neither case is someone attempting to establish a state religion, nor prohibit someone from practicing their religion, they're voting on a completely secular proposal but their reasonings for their vote is anything but secular.

    The Constitution prohibits laws that explicitly form a state religion, either directly or through specifically putting in a religious edict. However no where in any portion of the constitution does it state that religious views is barred from being used in the rational, either subconscious or conscious, of whether or not an individual or a congressman votes for a bill or not.

  5. #195
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    Re: Egyptian minister: Obama told me he is a Muslim

    Quote Originally Posted by Glinda View Post
    Never said there was. The problem arises when the leader of our nation chooses to wage war against an independent sovereign nation based on "God told me to."
    Its amazing you bitch about people "believing about the mythical man in the sky" and then you type out idiotic **** like that from a man who is a known antagonist to the individual in question and disagreed with the mans actions that is completely and utterly unverified but naturally because it suits your agenda of hatred for religion and hatred for George Bush obviously it must be unquestionably true.



    Dear Everybody, Including the President: Please do believe anything you wish; adhere to any faith, belief, religion, or philosophy you wish, none of it means diddly to me. I don't give a crap if you worship dung beetles and dance nekkid under the moonlight to appease Zeus in your own private world, but when a government official attempts to use his/her faith, belief, religion, or philosophy as an acceptable or legitimate justification for needlessly sending thousands to their deaths in a war of choice, I've got a BIG problem with that.
    I agree. Can we also agree that people Presiden'ts shouldn't use their faith, belief, religion, or philosophy to order an orgy break out over the entire US? Oh, oh, oh, how about they can't use their faith, belief, religion, or philosophy as justification for ****ting upon the head of the secretary of state. Oh, I know...how about they can't use it to justify a reach around with a spider monkey.

    I mean, since we're throwing out ridiculous situations that are adverse to actual logical fact and are based on nothing but one questionable accusation and personal bias without any care for the plethora of fact surrounding various reasons for the action might as well make it fun, right?

    Here's a little truth test for you; let's see how honest you really are:

    If Obama had said out loud, in front of an audience, "God speaks through me" you (and Fluffy Ninja and anyone else who gives Bush a pass on this) would be having coronaries over it.

    Please, PLEASE try to deny that one.
    Well that's simple, if Obama simply said:

    "God speaks through me" I'd probably raise an eye brow and think "WTF, that's a bit crazy" and likely be wary of him

    If he said

    "I trust God speaks through me. Without that, I couldn't do my job." to a bunch of Amish people

    Then I'd say he's either putting on an act (since there's no history of him being deeply religious). However, assuming lets say there WAS such a history, I'd likely think he's a deeply religious person that believes that we are subject to gods will and divine grace and that through following the tenets of the bible that we are doing gods work, thus him "speaking through" that person. I'd probably chuckle a bit at the surprise that Obama is more deeply religious then I thought, and then ignore it because it'd be a case of a deeply religious person speaking in religious terms to a bunch of even more deeply religious people in a way that makes sense to them.

    This is akin to someone that say, plays World of Warcraft, talking to a bunch of people who don't play going "Yeah, I play world of warcraft, its a neat game where I run around killing monsters and getting stronger" while talking to a bunch of other WOW players going "Yeah I pwn at WOW, I've got a leet Ele Shammy on A52 pumping out 5k dps when I'm pwning LDW in ICC for the uber loots." The later sentence would make little sense to people who are not heavily within that culture but its meaning is fully understandable to those that are in it. That person would likely not say such a sentence to others outside of that culture because they'd likely look at him like he's a loon speaking greek.

    But its amazing what giving FULL SENTENCES and CONTEXT can do to make a situation look different. Though, not surprising, of course you didn't bother with that because then it wouldn't make your obviously biased attempt at going "OMG CRAZY RELIGIOUS PERSON!" work nearly as well.


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    Re: Egyptian minister: Obama told me he is a Muslim

    So, you're in complete denial.

    Noted.

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    Re: Egyptian minister: Obama told me he is a Muslim

    It must be true then,this post has convinced me !!!!!

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    Re: Egyptian minister: Obama told me he is a Muslim

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    You may want to reread your posts. You jumped on the "He's a Muslim" bandwagon without checking the facts. Furthermore, racist church does not invalidate you as a Christian, if that was true, most of those at Bob Jones University are racist not to mention millions of Christians in the past that went to Churches that were racists.

    Basically, you don't like Obama and you will jump on anything to suit your bias.
    You need to reread I said he lied and deceived.

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    Re: Egyptian minister: Obama told me he is a Muslim

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Except for the fact that in this case the only way he's "lying and deceiving" is if he's a Muslim, which is like saying there are smurfs on Pluto. Its not true, so there's nothing to bitch about in regards to him "Lying and deceiving" on this issue UNLESS you think he's really a super duper secret Muslim!
    How do we know what is true? Obama has claimed to be Christian in a racist church but for 20 years he did not know it was racist. He is not credibile or beleivable. He tries to be all things to all people and the truth and facts do not matter.

    Obama lied to somebody.

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    Re: Egyptian minister: Obama told me he is a Muslim

    Quote Originally Posted by ptif219 View Post
    You need to reread I said he lied and deceived.
    You also need to reread where you argued you can't be Christian and a racist.

    "He claimed to be Christian when he went to a racist church for 20 years."

    Huh. Your argument is that if you go to a racist Church, you cannot actually be a Christian.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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