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Helen Thomas tells Jews to go back to Germany

washunut said:
How about the fact that an Israeli Arab is allowed to be a member of parliment. How well have Jews and Christians done in Arab nations.
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Just because Arab nations do things which are to my mind wrong, does not mean Israel should get a free pass because in some areas it is, unarguably, better. When some one points out a problem in something Israel does, the constant "well, soandso is worse" is simple excuse making, and entirely irrelevant.
 
washunut said:
What level of kill to be killed is acceptable to you? Pretty silly question I think. When I see responses such as these from intelligent people I do question where they are coming from.
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What level of kill to be kill is acceptable? That's an absurd question and not at all the point here. Israel has been known to engage in disproportionate responses against the Palestinian people for the crimes of militants within their population. This isn't acceptable for any other nation to do without the fury of the international community coming down on them like a storm.

I proposed a long time ago that until it gets under control and some kind of workable peace is agreed upon, perhaps creating a no man's land that small rocket fire can't reach across between Palestine and Israel would be a good solution. Racing tanks through Palestinian neighborhoods, however, is not.
 
washunut said:
Let me take your last point first. I have not accused anyone of anti-semitism. Some like to accuse folks of doing that, no idea why.
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Reverend_Hellh0und said:
Heck, given the current anti-Isreal climate of the administration, Anti-semetism is back in vogue? :ssst:
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MrVicchio said:
It's anti-Israeli.
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washunut said:
As to your proportionality issue. To be honest I find it almost incredible. Would the world be happier with Israel if they did not build shelters for their kids. Allowed more to get killed to even up the score.

What level of kill to be killed is acceptable to you? Pretty silly question I think. When I see responses such as these from intelligent people I do question where they are coming from.
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Do you not think that there is a great disproportion when 465 people are killed on one side and 4 on the other side? When basic goods (such as chocolate or coffee) are banned, for no other reason than to punish civilians?
 
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Redress said:
Just because Arab nations do things which are to my mind wrong, does not mean Israel should get a free pass because in some areas it is, unarguably, better. When some one points out a problem in something Israel does, the constant "well, soandso is worse" is simple excuse making, and entirely irrelevant.
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Well the point is that Israel is a democracy, Arab countries are mostly dictatorships. That explains why there should be a difference.
 
Redress said:
Just because Arab nations do things which are to my mind wrong, does not mean Israel should get a free pass because in some areas it is, unarguably, better. When some one points out a problem in something Israel does, the constant "well, soandso is worse" is simple excuse making, and entirely irrelevant.
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Except that the Israelis are acting in self defense.
 
Redress said:
This more than anything is the reason so much of the world does not care for Israel.
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Much of the world doesn't care for Israel, because Israel always whens the fight?
 
apdst said:
Much of the world doesn't care for Israel, because Israel always whens the fight?
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No, it's because Israel, when they fight back, always seem to go further than necessary.
 
apdst said:
Much of the world doesn't care for Israel, because Israel always whens the fight?
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Ya know Palestinians are people too and might have some legit gripes.
 
apdst said:
Except that the Israelis are acting in self defense.
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That does not mean anything:

about the invasion of Poland

Following several German-staged incidents (like the Gleiwitz incident, a part of Operation Himmler), which German propaganda used as an excuse to claim that German forces were acting in self-defence, the first regular act of war took place on 1 September 1939, at 04:40, when the German Air Force (Luftwaffe) attacked the Polish town of Wieluń, destroying 75% of the city and killing close to 1,200 people, most of them civilians. This invasion subsequently began the Second World War.
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Invasion of Poland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
bub said:
No one says that Israel does not have the right to defend itself, people say that it should be done with proportionality

Israelis_killed_by_Palestinians_in_Israel_and_Palestinians_killed_by_Israelis_in_Gaza_-_2008.png


One more problem is that, as several posters have said in this thread, criticism of Israel is too often dismissed as "anti-semitism". When people say that Belgian para-commandos should not have tortured a Somali kid on 1993 or that the same soldiers should have done something about the Rwandan genocide in 1994, or that there is a serious democratic deficit when all the Walloon parties team up, no one says that it is "anti-Belgianism".
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I want to talk about this chart briefly. I want to be fair here, and this chart is misleading. Israel has probably the most effective soldier for soldier fighting force in the world. Well trained, well organized, well equipped, well disciplined, and very very experienced. When they fight against Palestinian's, the death tolls are going to be very lopsided. This alone does not mean that Israel is doing something wrong. I suspect if you had similar charts for the death toll in Iraq during the gulf war(either really, the first or second), you would find similar totals, and I can promise you that the US did everything in it's power to not kill innocents, and even to not have to kill Iraqi soldiers if they did not have to.
 
bub said:
That does not mean anything:

about the invasion of Poland



Invasion of Poland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Israel gave Gaza to the Palestinians, so they could build their own country--not that they ever had one to begin with. Then, when the Pals got their own country, they turn around and declare war on Israel. So, yes, Israel is acting in self defense.

Palestine the country didn't exist before the Israelis fought for and won their freedom in 1948.

After what the Arabs have done to the Jews over the past few thousand years, I'm having a hard time summoning any sympathy for the Palestinians. Sorry.
 
Redress said:
I want to talk about this chart briefly. I want to be fair here, and this chart is misleading. Israel has probably the most effective soldier for soldier fighting force in the world. Well trained, well organized, well equipped, well disciplined, and very very experienced. When they fight against Palestinian's, the death tolls are going to be very lopsided. This alone does not mean that Israel is doing something wrong. I suspect if you had similar charts for the death toll in Iraq during the gulf war(either really, the first or second), you would find similar totals, and I can promise you that the US did everything in it's power to not kill innocents, and even to not have to kill Iraqi soldiers if they did not have to.
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You're right, we should rather see a comparative death toll of civilian casualties. I'm not convinced that it would be very different than this one however.
 
One last thing, and I got to go rescue laundry for a few minutes. The thing that saddens my most about this conflict is that the people who lose the most are the ones not actually fighting. The Israeli's killed and injured in missile attacks from Palestine are not the ones doing the fighting. The people who live in horrid conditions and have to worry about Israeli invasions in response to Hamas attacks(and those same Hamas fighters will then use these people as shields) are not the ones doing the fighting. Until and unless some solution for peace is achieved, the innocent will always pay the largest price.
 
bub said:
You're right, we should rather see a comparative death toll of civilian casualties. I'm not convinced that it would be very different than this one however.
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That graph would be even more lopsided, since the Pals don't wear military uniforms and use civilians as human shields during IDF attacks.

If you set up an anti-aircrat position in the middle of an apartment complex, you can't really bitch when some of your own civilians get smoked.
 
bub said:
You're right, we should rather see a comparative death toll of civilian casualties. I'm not convinced that it would be very different than this one however.
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I am not even sure that would be a fair comparison. When Israel is being attacked with missiles, they do have a right to go in and stop it. With the fighting being in Palestine territory, and the inevitability of collateral damage, and the fact that those instigating the attacks on Israel will use civilians as shields, the death toll will be higher for Palestinians.

I don't think those types of comparisons are useful. I think instead we have to look at each situation and judge the actions in that situation.
 
if she were an american of almost any political stripe, this expression of hate would be the instant end of her career

we'll see what happens to ms thomas
 
bub said:
No one says that Israel does not have the right to defend itself, people say that it should be done with proportionality
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and ther are those of us who think that proportionality is a joke.
 
The Giant Noodle said:
We tell the Jews to go back to Germany and let the Mexicans invade OUR country???

This world is F-ed up my friends. :doh
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On the flip side, some people want to kick out the Mexicans and keep the Israelis in Gaza. Weird.
Of course, some people would argue that equating immigrants who enter a country to perform menial labor in search of a better life to a military occupation force is a bit of a stretch.
 
The Prof said:
if she were an american of almost any political stripe, this expression of hate would be the instant end of her career

we'll see what happens to ms thomas
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She'll get a pass. Liberal excitement over racism, homophobia and anti-semetism is only for political ammo. They don't really care. It'll be like when Dan Rather made the, "selling watermelon's", comment a while back.
 
I'd love to know where the conservative hyperbole that liberals worship Helen Thomas comes from? Perhaps someone should take a poll and find out which liberals here at DP worship Helen Thomas. I think it would probably be a pretty good cross section of folks. Oh... but that would probably end up dismissing some of the right's partisan hackery in this thread. Oh darn. :roll:
 
apdst said:
She'll get a pass. Liberal excitement over racism, homophobia and anti-semetism is only for political ammo. They don't really care. It'll be like when Dan Rather made the, "selling watermelon's", comment a while back.
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You should read the thread. The reactions in this thread have been outside the bounds of normal partisanship. Jallman and I ended up agreeing point for point, and I got thanks from people of all spectrum in this thread. The need to make everything into a partisan political name calling fest is just silly.
 
jallman said:
What level of kill to be kill is acceptable? That's an absurd question and not at all the point here. Israel has been known to engage in disproportionate responses against the Palestinian people for the crimes of militants within their population. This isn't acceptable for any other nation to do without the fury of the international community coming down on them like a storm.

I proposed a long time ago that until it gets under control and some kind of workable peace is agreed upon, perhaps creating a no man's land that small rocket fire can't reach across between Palestine and Israel would be a good solution. Racing tanks through Palestinian neighborhoods, however, is not.
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I was responding to some graph that was shown that you thought was so important you thanked the author.

Your no man's land is a non starter. Look at a map, the areas are so close together won't happen. Even if it did all it would mean is that the rockets would have to increase their range by a couple of miles.

You must be against the U.S. killing many more civilians in Iraq,Afghanistan and Pakistan in probably a month than the out of control Israelies.
 
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