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Thread: Helen Thomas tells Jews to go back to Germany

  1. #131
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    Re: Helen Thomas tells Jews to go back to Germany

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    No, we do not, since proportionality is a concept, not a "critter". Proportionality indicates that there is some reasonable ratio that can be determined between acts. There isn't because of context of the situations. Context negates proportionality.
    Well then there is a misunderstanding.

    Contrary to what you seem to believe (maybe because some European governments seemed to say it was "not proportional" because there were 9 killed on one side and 0 on the other) proportionality is not related with any kind of ratio (well...not in law at least)
    For example, if there is a huge threat and that the only way to avoid a danger is to take extreme measures (such as slaughtering millions of animals during the "mad cow" or the swine flu crisises) it is "proportional".

    It was proportional to kill and cremate millions of chickens to avoid further contamination and possible human deaths.

    Proportionality is not a ratio, it is (roughly) the 3 criters I have mentioned. You can trust me, I have studied that in Constitutional Law 3 years ago (if you can search in the archives you should be able to find a very old thread where I was already saying the same)
    Last edited by bub; 06-05-10 at 08:10 AM.

  2. #132
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    Re: Helen Thomas tells Jews to go back to Germany

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    No one says that Israel does not have the right to defend itself, people say that it should be done with proportionality



    One more problem is that, as several posters have said in this thread, criticism of Israel is too often dismissed as "anti-semitism". When people say that Belgian para-commandos should not have tortured a Somali kid on 1993 or that the same soldiers should have done something about the Rwandan genocide in 1994, or that there is a serious democratic deficit when all the Walloon parties team up, no one says that it is "anti-Belgianism".
    I don't support either Israel or Palestine - I feel their issues go too far back for me to begin to decide who's right and who's wrong.

    However, I don't' feel that, in warfare or tumultuous conflict, that 'proportionality' has ANYTHING to do with who lives and who dies.
    Is there some sort of balanced, unwritten rule that we don't know about warfare? "They killed 3000 so we can only kill that many?" - and what if the other side (Palestine in this situation) simply doesn't have the ability to kill as many as have been killed - what then for them to make it more 'proportional' - ritualistic sacrifices or something?

    The purpose of casualty statistics is to inform - not necessarily to declare which side is being fair and which side isn't. I think this point is faaar overreaching.
    Last edited by Aunt Spiker; 06-05-10 at 10:32 AM.
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  3. #133
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    Re: Helen Thomas tells Jews to go back to Germany

    I'm curious - -how does one react "proportionately" to those who have vowed genocide against you in their very charter?
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

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    Re: Helen Thomas tells Jews to go back to Germany

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    Good!

    According to international courts, that's proportionality

    (a) the anticipated civilian damage or injury;
    (b) the anticipated military advantage;
    (c) and whether (a) was "clearly excessive" in relation to (b).


    Things that should enter into account are the "efficiency" of a measure, and also its "necessity".
    So you then support Israel trading Katusha rocket for Katusha rocket?

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    Re: Helen Thomas tells Jews to go back to Germany

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    What situations? War?

    Let's take an example:

    1914, the Germans invade Belgium, our army is quickly defeated and some civilians start shooting at German troops. In order to make it stop, the Germans execute 2000 civilians and burn thousands of houses. Is that OK?
    Specifically targeting civilians and executing them without a legitimate trial is a war crime.

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    Re: Helen Thomas tells Jews to go back to Germany

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    I'm curious - -how does one react "proportionately" to those who have vowed genocide against you in their very charter?
    Are you talking about the Likkud charter?

    The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.

    (...)

    Jerusalem is the eternal, united capital of the State of Israel and only of Israel. The government will flatly reject Palestinian proposals to divide Jerusalem

    (...)

    The Jordan river will be the permanent eastern border of the State of Israel.
    http://www.knesset.gov.il/elections/...5/elikud_m.htm

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    Re: Helen Thomas tells Jews to go back to Germany

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    Specifically targeting noncombatants and executing them without a legitimate trial is a war crime.
    i'm thinking that's a better way of putting it now; given the increasingly perforated lines between "civilians" and "combatants"

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    Re: Helen Thomas tells Jews to go back to Germany

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    So you then support Israel trading Katusha rocket for Katusha rocket?
    It would be better than replying to Katusha rockets with aerial bombing and demolition of houses, yes.

  9. #139
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    Re: Helen Thomas tells Jews to go back to Germany

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    Are you talking about the Likkud charter?
    Neither the Likud charter nor the Likud members themselves promote the genocide of the Palestinians, that's pure propaganda you're promoting here and your claim is absolutely not fitting the standards of human logic.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

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    Re: Helen Thomas tells Jews to go back to Germany

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    Are you talking about the Likkud charter?



    Likud - Platform
    Obviously not, for despite the fact I do not support the Likud's obectives, I am intelligent enough to realize there is no genocidal language inherent in such statements.
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

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