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Thread: Helen Thomas tells Jews to go back to Germany

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    Re: Helen Thomas tells Jews to go back to Germany

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    OK, so what do you call "proportionality"? What's your criteria?
    Clearly proportionality is referring to using the level of force required to fulfill your assignment, and nothing beyond it.
    You can kill a gunman by shooting at him or bombing him with a smart bomb, not by dropping a nuke on him.
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    Re: Helen Thomas tells Jews to go back to Germany

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    OK, so what do you call "proportionality"? What's your criteria?
    A proportional response would be to launch 1 Katusha rocket back into Gaza for everyone fired into Israel, is that what you want? Do you know how many more dead Palestinian civilians would result from such a policy?

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    Re: Helen Thomas tells Jews to go back to Germany

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    OK, so what do you call "proportionality"? What's your criteria?
    I reject proportionality in situations such as these.
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    Re: Helen Thomas tells Jews to go back to Germany

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Clearly proportionality is referring to using the level of force required to fulfill your assignment, and nothing beyond it.
    You can kill a gunman by shooting at him or bombing him with a smart bomb, not by dropping a nuke on him.
    Good!

    According to international courts, that's proportionality

    (a) the anticipated civilian damage or injury;
    (b) the anticipated military advantage;
    (c) and whether (a) was "clearly excessive" in relation to (b).


    Things that should enter into account are the "efficiency" of a measure, and also its "necessity".

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    Re: Helen Thomas tells Jews to go back to Germany

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    I reject proportionality in situations such as these.
    What situations? War?

    Let's take an example:

    1914, the Germans invade Belgium, our army is quickly defeated and some civilians start shooting at German troops. In order to make it stop, the Germans execute 2000 civilians and burn thousands of houses. Is that OK?

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    Re: Helen Thomas tells Jews to go back to Germany

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    What situations? War?

    Let's take an example:

    1914, the Germans invade Belgium, our army is quickly defeated and some civilians start shooting at German troops. In order to make it stop, the Germans execute 2000 civilians and burn thousands of houses. Is that OK?
    In war, yes. The situation that you describe, I would need more information to assess. My first answer would be, no, that is not OK, but since Israel is not doing something like that, you are not making an analogous statement anyway.
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    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

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    Re: Helen Thomas tells Jews to go back to Germany

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    In war, yes. The situation that you describe, I would need more information to assess. My first answer would be, no, that is not OK, but since Israel is not doing something like that, you are not making an analogous statement anyway.
    It's not an analogy with Israel, it's about the principle of proportionality.

    You find it (the "rape of Belgium") wrong because

    the anticipated civilian damage (2,000 civilians executed) is high
    the anticipated military advantage (avoid the death of some German soldiers who could be ambushed by franc-tireurs) is low
    and executing 2,000 civilians is clearly excessive in relation to the casualties that would be sustained by the German army

    Furthermore, the measure was not effective (murdering civilians does not make such attacks stop: during the WWII there were numerous executions of hostages and resistants, and that has never stopped civilian attacks against the German army. In the case of the "rape of Belgium" the result was a worldwide condemnation of Germany)

    Rape of Belgium - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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    Re: Helen Thomas tells Jews to go back to Germany

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    It's not an analogy with Israel, it's about the principle of proportionality.

    You find it (the "rape of Belgium") wrong because

    the anticipated civilian damage (2,000 civilians executed) is high
    Nope.

    the anticipated military advantage (avoid the death of some German soldiers who could be ambushed by franc-tireurs) is low
    Nope.
    and executing 2,000 civilians is clearly excessive in relation to the casualties that would be sustained by the German army
    And nope. I found it wrong for none of those reasons. Based on just the information you gave, I found it wrong because it was not situationally consistent. If Belgian civiliians had started shooting at German troops from inside a civilian area, and the Germans bombed the area where the fire was coming from, after informing the Belgians that this would happen if they did not cease, killing 2000 civilians in the process, I would not consider that to be situationally consistent and proportionality would not apply.

    Furthermore, the measure was not effective (murdering civilians does not make such attacks stop: during the WWII there were numerous executions of hostages and resistants, and that has never stopped civilian attacks against the German army. In the case of the "rape of Belgium" the result was a worldwide condemnation of Germany)

    Rape of Belgium - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    And again, you are talking about non-analogous situations.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
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    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: Helen Thomas tells Jews to go back to Germany

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Nope.
    Did you just say it was OK to execute 2,000 civilians?


    Nope.
    Well at least that's not what the British population thought in 1914.


    And nope. I found it wrong for none of those reasons. Based on just the information you gave, I found it wrong because it was not situationally consistent. If Belgian civiliians had started shooting at German troops from inside a civilian area, and the Germans bombed the area where the fire was coming from, after informing the Belgians that this would happen if they did not cease, killing 2000 civilians in the process, I would not consider that to be situationally consistent and proportionality would not apply.



    And again, you are talking about non-analogous situations.
    I'm not making an analogy with what Israel does, I'm talking about the principle of proportionality.

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    Re: Helen Thomas tells Jews to go back to Germany

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    Did you just say it was OK to execute 2,000 civilians?
    No, I did not.
    Well at least that's not what the British population thought in 1914.
    OK.

    I'm not making an analogy with what Israel does, I'm talking about the principle of proportionality.
    No, you are doing both. And I am responding to both. I already stated that I do not believe what the Germans did was acceptable and I explained why. I also gave you a situation where I WOULD see their response as acceptable. I reject the notion of proportionality in wartime situations and prefer to view them as either situationally consistent or not.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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