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Israeli officials have found no weapons onboard relief convoy

What part of raiding an aid flotilla in international waters is legal?
 
Hoplite said:
Israeli military gives version of flotilla incident - CNN.com
""They beat us up with metal sticks and knives," he said. "There was live fire at some point against us... They were shooting at us from below deck."

Now apparently the activists had magic guns that disappear once dropped because the IDF has yet to find any firearms or present proof that any firearms except their own were fired or even present.
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I know this has been pointed out to you several times, but I'll say it again. Nobody is claiming that the activists brought guns with them. The claim which has been repeated over and over is that some of the activists took the soldiers guns and fired them. This is not in any way inconsistent with what I've been saying, nor is it a change from what they were claiming several days ago. Saying that "the IDF is now claiming that they were fired on" as if its a change from a prior statement is disingenuous.

The only reason you haven't seen it is because you ignore what people say. According to international conventions on maritime law, which I have previously posted, Israel has to seek permission from the host government of a ship to stop and seize it in international waters, which they did not do.
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I explained why that convention is inapplicable to this situation here: http://www.debatepolitics.com/news-...ons-onboard-relief-convoy.html#post1058783893

You never responded, and instead just repeated your claim later on.

Because no indication of any threat has been found onboard the ships. We also dont know what Israel knew because they arent being very forthcoming with the impetus for stopping and searching the ships.
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And a threat to sovereignty warranting a response can only exist when an ex post inspection turns up actual physical weapons? Interesting theory.

It's provided in the link you responded to, dont blame me for you being lazy.
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No, no it's not. Again, I'm asking you for the actual legal language that makes this illegal. The reason why I'm doing that is because you and others have repeatedly thrown out copy/pasted arguments that speak in generalities, pretending that that proves your argument. When you actually get around to posting the language that you think proves your case, I and others have explained why you're wrong. Copy/pasting other people's broad arguments doesn't refute that.
 
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Apocalypse said:
Those are pictures from the office of the IDF spokesman buddy.
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And therefore a highly uncredible source. If these people can hide nuclear bombs in tiny Israel, they can hide a few truths about a boat. The first hand account of all those on board, German/British/American/Turkish you name it have described the handling of the situation by the IDF heavy handed and unnecessarily bloody.

And you should ask yourself why.
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Tell me your convinced the BBC is anti-semetic. Please. Make my day. This isn't 1945 baby. The anti-Semites don't call the west Zionist Occupational Government for nothing you know.

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I only see sticks being used?
The circled thing in red could be a strap-on for all you could tell, but that was convinently branded as a "WMD" probably. Let me tell you buddy if i was sailing by boat in international waters and a bunch of Jews jumped on my boat id be going all SS over there arses too.

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This is just pathetic. An apache helicopter has managed to circle out a blurred figure in the distance holding a knife. wtf. I just saw the top of somebodies head.

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Those rods have not been confirmed as being metal in fact your pictures do not show metal rods. The last video in the end obviously shows a wooden rod despite its insistence otherwise. I still only see activists defending themselves from an illegal raid.
 
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MetalGear said:
And therefore a highly uncredible source. If these people can hide nuclear bombs in tiny Israel, they can hide a few truths about a boat. The first hand account of all those on board, German/British/American/Turkish you name it have described the handling of the situation by the IDF heavy handed and unnecessarily bloody.
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They responded to lethal force with lethal force, the response was necessary, appropriate, and proportional.



I only see sticks being used?
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Go try and beat a cop to death with a metal club and I'll see you in the ****ing obituaries.


This is just pathetic. An apache helicopter has managed to circle out a blurred figure in the distance holding a knife. wtf. I just saw the top of somebodies head.
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lol we have the photographs of the captured knives, they had dozens of them, along with metal and wood pipes, gas masks, and power saws.

Those rods have not been confirmed as being metal in fact your pictures do not show metal rods.
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OMFG now the debate is on whether or not they were metal? RU saying that you can't beat someone to death with a wood rod?

Anyways in this video of the recovered weapons it is clear that they had metal and wood clubs:



I still only see activists defending themselves.
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These were not activists they were jihadists, this boat was bought and operated by the jihadist IHH and several of the "activists" are on record stating their wish to become shahid, and they are on video invoking battle cries against the Jews. They attempted to murder Israeli cargo inspectors conducting a legitimate weapons inspection on a ship whose explicit intent was running the Israeli blockade.
 
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Apocalypse said:
I believe al-Jazeera has an edited video floating around the media that was filmed during the interception, no?
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Haven't seen it. Have seen one or two bits but nothing like you would have got with everyones phones which would have made it possible to get possible a fuller picture - if someone was able to put all the bits together and phones were timed and so on.

Apocalypse said:
Their entire purpose was propaganda, you can't expect them to stop the propaganda now.
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Your bias is getting too much for me. Given that the people never expected Israel to attack them on the high seas, they clearly did not have time to work out that they would die at Israels hands for propaganda. Have you looked at Free Gaza. Your bias is just too much for me.


Apocalypse said:
Those folks have attacked Israeli soldiers that haven't attacked them, how credible do you think they are?
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Even the people on the boats where there was no violence against Israelis complain of being beaten and humiliated. These people were defending their boat when it was being attacked. I do not think it was a sensible thing to do but that is what they were doing. We have already seen in other threads that it is really stupid to descend from helicopters onto areas where people are waiting with battons and Paul (Gunner)from his experience as a soldier has pointed out that this is a very forceful way to go about things. As Israel was dealing with International civilians on a ship of another country in high seas, this at the least seems a very provocative stance to take. As Israel apparently already believed them to be jihaddists, even more so, given that along with them were peace activists from around the world.

Apocalypse said:
Correct. Only one of the ship has had a crew of about 100 people trying to lynch and murder the soldiers.
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and youtube has not one video on this and our news has not even suggested this as any possibility.


Apocalypse said:
Those folks are jihadists, and 3 of the people who died are filmed before the interception as they dream about becoming Shahids. (martyrs)
You're speaking with bias.
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Three nutters who slipped through the net out of around 700 people and they are the only ones who grab your attention. If you visit Free Gaza website you will find they made it absolutely clear that they were wanting no violence.

Apocalypse said:
I think she was caught on lying and people who listen to her are people who want her versions to be true, people who support the anti-Israeli propaganda knowing that it's pure propaganda.
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What was she cought on lying with. Many people have said the Israelis came on board firing. Whether they did or not I do not know.


Apocalypse said:
Doesn't matter, Israel has legally boarded the ship and the soldiers were illegally attacked and assaulted with the clear intent of killing them.
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I don't know if anyone has decided that people have no right to defend themselves when being attacked.


Apocalypse said:
They've had every right to react in self-defense when being shot at by the lynching mob.
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I went to youtube and I could not find one video of any lynching mob on board that boat. If that is on what Israel are basing firing on the passangers, there will need to be proof that Israel did not fire before she got on board and that people were trying to lynch soldiers. 100 people according to you.

Apocalypse said:
I think that there are enough videos already that create a basis for the claim that the soldiers were being lynched.
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and yet not one on youtube.
Apocalypse said:
The chopper's rope is being grabbed and tied to an antena in order to bring it down, before the soldiers have even boarded the ship.
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Fantasy and judging something before any facts are known. Fair enquiry. rofl

Apocalypse said:
Israel needs to carry an international-level investigation, with overseers from all the nations and organizations I've listed above, and prove that the facts are with it and that it has done everything legally.
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If your replies here are indicative of the kind of enquiry Israel is likely to do, may as well keep it to yourself. I will read the Beano.
 
MetalGear said:
And therefore a highly uncredible source.
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Not at all, it has no history of misleadings.
If these people can hide nuclear bombs in tiny Israel, they can hide a few truths about a boat.
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Israel has failed in hiding its nuclear weapons but I fail in seeing how is this an analogy.
The first hand account of all those on board, German/British/American/Turkish you name it have described the handling of the situation by the IDF heavy handed and unnecessarily bloody.
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So they are credible, even though they were found to be lying when they said at first that soldiers weren't attacked, and yet the IDF is not credible.
Do you not see a pattern here?
I sure do.
Tell me your convinced the BBC is anti-semetic. Please. Make my day. This isn't 1945 baby. The anti-Semites don't call the west Zionist Occupational Government for nothing you know.
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You're the only one talking about anti-Semitism here buddy, which only acts to show you're rejecting the truth.
I only see sticks being used?
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Those sticks are called crowbars, and in two of the videos you can see knives and molotovs.
Nevertheless soldiers were wounded by gunshots.
The circled thing in red could be a strap-on for all you could tell, but that was convinently branded as a "WMD" probably. Let me tell you buddy if i was sailing by boat in international waters and a bunch of Jews jumped on my boat id be going all SS over there arses too.
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It didn't come out of the blue, they knew exactly what's waiting for them(the boarding of the ship) and they were warned twice to stop the ship and refused to comply.
If you were trying to murder and lynch IDF commandos you'd suffer from the same faith. The soldiers have every right to defend themselves.
This is just pathetic. An apache helicopter has managed to circle out a blurred figure in the distance holding a knife. wtf. I just saw the top of somebodies head.
Those rods have not been confirmed as being metal in fact your pictures do not show metal rods. The last video in the end obviously shows a wooden rod despite its insistence otherwise. I still only see activists defending themselves from an illegal raid.
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Actually they were, haven't you seen the video where they throw a stun grenade on the IDF speed boat? They look like metal rods to me.
 
alexa said:
Haven't seen it. Have seen one or two bits but nothing like you would have got with everyones phones which would have made it possible to get possible a fuller picture - if someone was able to put all the bits together and phones were timed and so on.

Your bias is getting too much for me. Given that the people never expected Israel to attack them on the high seas, they clearly did not have time to work out that they would die at Israels hands for propaganda. Have you looked at Free Gaza. Your bias is just too much for me.
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Say what you will, if you buy into their words just like that then you're pretty much strongly biased yourself, considering that the facts show they've done it all for propaganda purposes.
Three of the deads have talked about becoming Shahids for ****'s sake.
Even the people on the boats where there was no violence against Israelis complain of being beaten and humiliated.
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You're refferring to it as a fact while it isn't.
There's no reason to take their words for granted, and yet you do.
Your bias is overwhelming, and if you'd think objectively for a moment and let your ego down you'd see that I'm right.
These people were defending their boat when it was being attacked.
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They were not attacked.
They have attacked the soldiers.
I do not think it was a sensible thing to do but that is what they were doing.
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Not according to the footage.
We have already seen in other threads that it is really stupid to descend from helicopters onto areas where people are waiting with battons and Paul (Gunner)from his experience as a soldier has pointed out that this is a very forceful way to go about things.
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You're not making actual arguments here.
As Israel was dealing with International civilians on a ship of another country in high seas, this at the least seems a very provocative stance to take. As Israel apparently already believed them to be jihaddists, even more so, given that along with them were peace activists from around the world.
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They were no peace activists, that's for certain.
and youtube has not one video on this and our news has not even suggested this as any possibility.
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Youtube has more than one videos on this, it's just that you're not used to the other side backing up its statements with videos and evidence.
Three nutters who slipped through the net out of around 700 people and they are the only ones who grab your attention. If you visit Free Gaza website you will find they made it absolutely clear that they were wanting no violence.
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Over 100 nutters have slipped through the net.
Not all of the people have attacked the soldiers, but those who did have done so with the intention to kill them and have suffered from the consequences.
The soldiers have reacted with an amazing restraint.
What was she cought on lying with. Many people have said the Israelis came on board firing. Whether they did or not I do not know.
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She said that soldiers were not attacked at all.
The second lie was that the soldiers came on board firing.
I don't know if anyone has decided that people have no right to defend themselves when being attacked.
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It seems like you've decided that, since you promtoe the thinking that the soldiers should have dropped dead instead of defending their lives.
I went to youtube and I could not find one video of any lynching mob on board that boat.
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Then you've apparently tried really hard. Just in this thread there are craploads of videos about it.
If that is on what Israel are basing firing on the passangers, there will need to be proof that Israel did not fire before she got on board and that people were trying to lynch soldiers. 100 people according to you.
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Israel has got nothing to hide, justice is with it.
and yet not one on youtube.
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Way more than one.
Fantasy and judging something before any facts are known. Fair enquiry. rofl
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Not at all, backed up with evidence it is.
Israel however was condemned before any facts were known.
If your replies here are indicative of the kind of enquiry Israel is likely to do, may as well keep it to yourself. I will read the Beano.
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In other words, you don't want to hear that which counters your rejection of reality.
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Agent Ferris said:
They responded to lethal force with lethal force, the response was necessary, appropriate, and proportional.
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They responded to force with lethal force, i think you meant to say.

Go try and beat a cop to death with a metal club and I'll see you in the ****ing obituaries.
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Wooden actually. ;)
Look buddy, if an American cop jumped on my arse on the canadian border, i probably would.


lol we have the photographs of the captured knives, they had dozens of them, along with metal and wood pipes, gas masks, and power saws.
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OK and you can say with certainty these where put on board with the intent of killing IDF soldiers? Because they where not even used during the illegal raid.


OMFG now the debate is on whether or not they were metal? RU saying that you can't beat someone to death with a wood rod?
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Im just saying, it's another list of over exaggerated elements. A wooden stick isn't going to do much with men in protective clothing. The IDF are too trigger happy, that's the problem.

A
nyways in this video of the recovered weapons it is clear that they had metal and wood clubs:

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Still no proof they where used.
As ive said, ive got more knives in my kitchen than an aid flotilla carrying a few hundred. Whats the problem here? I suppose if the IDF had found a toilet brush that would have been added to the list of items of attempted weaponary.

These were not activists they were jihadists, this boat was bought and operated by the jihadist IHH and several of the "activists" are on record stating their wish to become shahid, and they are on video invoking battle cries against the Jews. They attempted to murder Israeli cargo inspectors conducting a legitimate weapons inspection on a ship whose explicit intent was running the Israeli blockade.
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B-ollocks.
 
Apocalypse said:
Not at all, it has no history of misleadings.
Israel has failed in hiding its nuclear weapons but I fail in seeing how is this an analogy.
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Its well within the capability of the IDF to cover certain, convenient facts. The footage has been edited so we only see the "good" parts. An impartial international inquiry has been denied by Israel - no surprise there. Infact, the Israeli's will lead there own investigation. Well i'll be damned. Why dont we just put Liberman in charge of this investigation while we're at it?

So they are credible, even though they were found to be lying when they said at first that soldiers weren't attacked, and yet the IDF is not credible.
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They said they where defending themselves from IDF soldiers who had raided there flotilla in international waters.

You're the only one talking about anti-Semitism here buddy, which only acts to show you're rejecting the truth.
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Huh? Well ok, what did you have in mind then, regarding the BBC? Is it owned by Saudi's? What possible conspiracy theory could you have?

Those sticks are called crowbars, and in two of the videos you can see knives and molotovs.
Nevertheless soldiers were wounded by gunshots.
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I didn't see any such weapons in the clips. Can you provide me a source please regarding soldiers being wounded by gunshots, haven't heard that one yet?

It didn't come out of the blue, they knew exactly what's waiting for them(the boarding of the ship) and they were warned twice to stop the ship and refused to comply.
If you were trying to murder and lynch IDF commandos you'd suffer from the same faith. The soldiers have every right to defend themselves.
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Yes, they fought sticks with guns. Im well aware of that. Unnecessary lethal force, boarding a ship illegally, illegally blockading the gaza strip...when will you realize, it was the activists acting in self defence. Israel has started to become a regional burden. Erdogan lashed out too early. The Gaza offensive was needed but the killing of his own citizens, now that is going to receive a big Turkish reaction. Egypt has slapped you in the face by opening the boarders, so if you where scared the aid ship had weapons, god knows what syrian gun power is crossing over the sinai as we speak. Now Turkey knows damn well how bastardized these Arabs can be, i can assure you, if there is a single country in the Middle East which has been on the sharp end of an Arabic sword more often than not, its the Turks. Those arseholes stabbed us in the back more than once. Consequently, it will never be forgotten, because it nearly cost us our sovereign. Now, for a country who used to refer to dogs before Arabs, and a country which back in 1996 had expelled an Iranian diplomat for anti-Semitism, had refered to Israel as there regional "soul mate", to become such a staunch opponent of Israeli policies in such a short amount of time, thats telling you something kiddo.
 
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RightinNYC said:
I know this has been pointed out to you several times, but I'll say it again. Nobody is claiming that the activists brought guns with them. The claim which has been repeated over and over is that some of the activists took the soldiers guns and fired them. This is not in any way inconsistent with what I've been saying, nor is it a change from what they were claiming several days ago. Saying that "the IDF is now claiming that they were fired on" as if its a change from a prior statement is disingenuous.



I explained why that convention is inapplicable to this situation here: http://www.debatepolitics.com/news-...ons-onboard-relief-convoy.html#post1058783893

You never responded, and instead just repeated your claim later on.



And a threat to sovereignty warranting a response can only exist when an ex post inspection turns up actual physical weapons? Interesting theory.



No, no it's not. Again, I'm asking you for the actual legal language that makes this illegal. The reason why I'm doing that is because you and others have repeatedly thrown out copy/pasted arguments that speak in generalities, pretending that that proves your argument. When you actually get around to posting the language that you think proves your case, I and others have explained why you're wrong. Copy/pasting other people's broad arguments doesn't refute that.
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I will continue any discussion about the legality of the move in this thread
http://www.debatepolitics.com/gener...156-legality-israeli-raid.html#post1058786483
 
MetalGear said:
They responded to force with lethal force, i think you meant to say.



Wooden actually. ;)
Look buddy, if an American cop jumped on my arse on the canadian border, i probably would.




OK and you can say with certainty these where put on board with the intent of killing IDF soldiers? Because they where not even used during the illegal raid.




Im just saying, it's another list of over exaggerated elements. A wooden stick isn't going to do much with men in protective clothing. The IDF are too trigger happy, that's the problem.

A

Still no proof they where used.
As ive said, ive got more knives in my kitchen than an aid flotilla carrying a few hundred. Whats the problem here? I suppose if the IDF had found a toilet brush that would have been added to the list of items of attempted weaponary.



B-ollocks.
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I'm done with your bull****, this video clearly shows that the pipes were metal and it shows one of the IDF soldiers being stabbed:

 
I guess knives don't count?
 
American said:
I guess knives don't count?
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Was that not a rhetorical post? Because i dont see any knives? I just see a bunch of idiots who, albeit should not have been there in the first place, defending themselves.
 
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