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Thread: Israeli officials have found no weapons onboard relief convoy

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    Re: Israeli officials have found no weapons onboard relief convoy

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Those investigations tend to be biased, such as the Goldstone investigation which was accused of bias by Israel, the US and a few other European countries.
    However the Israeli media reports that the state would have to cooperate with an international investigation.
    O no doubt many potential investigators would be biased, but I would like to see some kind of 3rd party investigation. But either way there's so much crap flying around about this incident that I can't tell whats what, people seem to have already made their opinions based on their already existing opinions on Israel.

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    Re: Israeli officials have found no weapons onboard relief convoy

    Two items...


    This is no Martha Stewart kitchen-set knife. Lethal and illegal. Carrying this weapon in public would get you arrested in virtually every Western country. Reminds me of that scene in Indiana Jones where this dude came at Indy with one of these deals. Indy simply pulled out his sidearm and popped him.


    Didn't the US Navy impose a naval blockade on Cuba (1962) with the purpose of boarding and inspecting any ship that approached Cuban waters?

    אשכנזי היהודי • Белый Россию

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    Re: Israeli officials have found no weapons onboard relief convoy

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    I don't recall the IDF or I ever claiming that the activists brought guns. I've said the exact opposite a half-dozen times.
    The IDF is now claiming they were fired on.

    You're free to believe or disbelieve whatever you want. If you'd watched the videos, you would have seen several situations where soldiers were knocked down or piled oin by the activists. You're free to think that it's physically impossible that someone could have grabbed a gun in one of those situations, but I don't.
    I believe it's extremely unlikely that it could have happened and the IDF has done nothing to back up these claims.

    Link?
    I was incorrect earlier as classifying it as an act of piracy, the IDF did carry a military commission from the Israeli government however that does NOT change the fact that the attack was against international law.

    And yet they didn't do a very good job of it, as is clearly obvious from the videos. But I guess that never happened, because in your mind IDF soldiers are Ramboesque commandos who are completely invulnerable from any harm.
    I find it difficult to believe that IDF commandos, who are HIGHLY trained and well armed soldiers, would suffer such set-backs at the hands of people who are largely untrained, unarmored, and armed with slingshots, metal pipes, and kitchen knives.

    This is akin to a group of college students attacking US Navy SEALS and the SEALS saying "Well..they had PIPES!"

    Not sure what you think your point is here. You said there were no weapons. I pointed out that there were a ****load of knives. You said that they were just kitchen knives. I pointed out that even kitchen knives can be weapons, and that there were additional non-kitchen knives.
    Then by that logic everyone has THOUSANDS of weapons all over their homes! If you want to get nit-picky, we can do that: there was no item on board the ship that had the clear intention of being a deadly weapon. Happy?

    Unless you're going to argue that a knife is not a weapon, I don't really know where you're going with this.
    You're making knives that people carry around for utility into some arsenal of death. Utility knives are NOT rare things and you're making it seem like carrying one instantly means you intend to use it to kill someone and thats the only reason to have it.

    If you still can't see how they could be classified as weapons, I advise you to grab a Jambiya and head down to the mall to see what happens.
    I carry a similar weapon on me at all times.

    And yet nobody has managed to prove this, bare assertions aside.
    The Associated Press: Israeli police say 16 Gaza activists sent to jail
    "Robin Churchill, a professor of international law at the University of Dundee in Scotland, said the Israeli commandos boarded the ship outside of Israel's territorial waters.

    "As far as I can see, there is no legal basis for boarding these ships," Churchill said."


    Was seizing the flotilla legal? - The Globe and Mail
    "Israel justifies the boarding of the ships in international waters basically as an act of self defence. It is Israel’s argument that the naval blockade of Gaza is needed to prevent Hamas in Gaza from attacking Israel.

    However, notes Michael Byers, Canada Research Chair in Global Politics and International law at UBC, the test in international for constituting legal self defence is whether the action taken was “necessary and proportionate.” On the facts, “the action does not appear to have been necessary in that the threat was not imminent,” Prof. Byers said."

    How the flotilla bound for Gaza Strip sailed into death at sea - Times Online
    • Boarding a vessel is acceptable in certain circumstances, such as when a boat is suspected of terrorist activities or carrying weapons of mass destruction, but even then Israel, for example, would need to seek permission from the country where the boat is registered, in this case Turkey

    • Jason Alderwick, a maritime analyst at the International Institute for Strategic Studies, said that the Israeli raid did not appear to have been conducted lawfully under the convention



    Israel has also violated the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea by capturing the boats in international waters. They have also, by not seeking permission of the host government (Turkey) to board the ships in international waters, violated the UN International Maritime Organization Convention for the Suppression of Unlawful Acts Against the Safety of Maritime Navigation which Israel signed and agreed to abide by in 2009.

    That convention is entirely inapplicable here. Not only is it designed to target individual non-state actors, but you're missing a key provision:

    The Convention doesn't create any new crimes, it simply creates a remedy for things that are already crimes under international law. Citing this convention as proof that the action was illegal is circular reasoning.
    This type of incident is spelled out as illegal by other bodies of international maritime law.

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    Boarding and inspection was consistent with international law (San Remo Manual, Law of the Sea Convention, and customary international law).
    San Remo applies to a situation in which the laws of war between states are in force. The laws of war do not apply in the conflict between Israel and Hamas, which isn't even a state.
    I'm Done

    See my last post

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    Re: Israeli officials have found no weapons onboard relief convoy

    The flotilla was 6 ships and carrying over 700 with a huge variety of people and cargo. I think its clear so far the convey was carrying some illegal items along with some dangerous people but I'd really like to know more than 3 out of the 700 people were jihadists and some of them had some knives.

    I think there's enough evidence to say Israel was legally justified in this action, but other issues such as morally justified or if it was justified from a perspective of what's best for Israel, in my opinion.

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    Re: Israeli officials have found no weapons onboard relief convoy

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoplite View Post
    This is akin to a group of college students attacking US Navy SEALS and the SEALS saying "Well..they had PIPES!"
    Go pull a knife or a metal pipe on a cop or an armed Navy SEAL and I'll see you in the ****ing obituaries. They responded to the use of deadly force with deadly force.

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    Re: Israeli officials have found no weapons onboard relief convoy

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoplite View Post
    San Remo applies to a situation in which the laws of war between states are in force.
    No it applies to "parties in armed conflict at sea."

    The laws of war do not apply in the conflict between Israel and Hamas, which isn't even a state.
    Good to know so then Israel can nuke Gaza tomorrow. WOOT!!!

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    Re: Israeli officials have found no weapons onboard relief convoy

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    O no doubt many potential investigators would be biased, but I would like to see some kind of 3rd party investigation. But either way there's so much crap flying around about this incident that I can't tell whats what, people seem to have already made their opinions based on their already existing opinions on Israel.
    One of the Israeli government's ministers(Benjamin ben-Eliezer) has just stated that an international investigation should be formed, explaining that "Israel has got absolutely nothing to hide".
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

    Dante Alighieri

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    Re: Israeli officials have found no weapons onboard relief convoy

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    One of the Israeli government's ministers(Benjamin ben-Eliezer) has just stated that an international investigation should be formed, explaining that "Israel has got absolutely nothing to hide".
    I'm a victum of what I was talking about. If i was of a certain opinion of Israel I could have used that JP article to say all kinds of things which probably wouldnt have been true, there's too much information flying around and its changing too fast for anyone i believe to form an opinion which uses all the facts.

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    Re: Israeli officials have found no weapons onboard relief convoy

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoplite View Post
    The IDF is now claiming they were fired on.
    Link?

    I believe it's extremely unlikely that it could have happened and the IDF has done nothing to back up these claims.
    I find it difficult to believe that IDF commandos, who are HIGHLY trained and well armed soldiers, would suffer such set-backs at the hands of people who are largely untrained, unarmored, and armed with slingshots, metal pipes, and kitchen knives.

    This is akin to a group of college students attacking US Navy SEALS and the SEALS saying "Well..they had PIPES!"
    Like I said, believe whatever you want.

    I was incorrect earlier as classifying it as an act of piracy, the IDF did carry a military commission from the Israeli government however that does NOT change the fact that the attack was against international law.
    I'm still waiting for you to show me how it's illegal. It's been several days, and no one has yet managed to come up with anything.

    Then by that logic everyone has THOUSANDS of weapons all over their homes! If you want to get nit-picky, we can do that: there was no item on board the ship that had the clear intention of being a deadly weapon. Happy?
    There was no item on board that had the sole purpose of being a deadly weapon. I've said that for days.

    You're making knives that people carry around for utility into some arsenal of death. Utility knives are NOT rare things and you're making it seem like carrying one instantly means you intend to use it to kill someone and thats the only reason to have it.
    No, I'm making it seem like carrying a utility knife or metal pole around and then using it to attack someone makes it seem like you had it for the purpose of attacking someone.

    I carry a similar weapon on me at all times.
    So you agree that it's a weapon! Great.


    The Associated Press: Israeli police say 16 Gaza activists sent to jail
    "Robin Churchill, a professor of international law at the University of Dundee in Scotland, said the Israeli commandos boarded the ship outside of Israel's territorial waters.

    "As far as I can see, there is no legal basis for boarding these ships," Churchill said."
    Rather than repeating the bare and unsupported assertion of some guy, why don't you show me how it violated international law?

    Was seizing the flotilla legal? - The Globe and Mail
    "Israel justifies the boarding of the ships in international waters basically as an act of self defence. It is Israel’s argument that the naval blockade of Gaza is needed to prevent Hamas in Gaza from attacking Israel.

    However, notes Michael Byers, Canada Research Chair in Global Politics and International law at UBC, the test in international for constituting legal self defence is whether the action taken was “necessary and proportionate.” On the facts, “the action does not appear to have been necessary in that the threat was not imminent,” Prof. Byers said."
    Byers has the right test, but like most law profs, he ignores the fact that it's not up to him to determine whether the threat was imminent. Israel determined that it was, so it took action. Who the **** is he to say that they're wrong?

    How the flotilla bound for Gaza Strip sailed into death at sea - Times Online
    • Boarding a vessel is acceptable in certain circumstances, such as when a boat is suspected of terrorist activities or carrying weapons of mass destruction, but even then Israel, for example, would need to seek permission from the country where the boat is registered, in this case Turkey

    • Jason Alderwick, a maritime analyst at the International Institute for Strategic Studies, said that the Israeli raid did not appear to have been conducted lawfully under the convention
    Link me to the part of the convention that makes this illegal.

    Israel has also violated the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea by capturing the boats in international waters. They have also, by not seeking permission of the host government (Turkey) to board the ships in international waters, violated the UN International Maritime Organization Convention for the Suppression of Unlawful Acts Against the Safety of Maritime Navigation which Israel signed and agreed to abide by in 2009.
    I explained how this is entirely inapplicable in this very thread less than 24 hours ago.

    This type of incident is spelled out as illegal by other bodies of international maritime law.
    Such as?
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Israeli officials have found no weapons onboard relief convoy

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    Yes and we know how well using knives and clubs are against SMG's and handguns dont we. By god they were armed to the teeth werent they, able to defend themselves versus the entire Israeli navy with just knives and clubs, and by golly win
    That can happen when you fast rope onto a ship carrying a paint gun.

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