N.J. Gov. Chris Christie swiftly vetoes 'millionaires tax,' property tax rebate bills

digsbe · May 22, 2010

Re: N.J. Gov. Chris Christie swiftly vetoes 'millionaires tax,' property tax rebate b

CaptainCourtesy said:
Ahhh... no. You are presenting a position of punishment.

How so? Would it be fair to tax the poor and middle class more? It seems logical to tax those who have more and are financially stable enough to pay.

If many of these guys can spend over $100 on fancy meals, why can't they help foot the bill for New Jersey?

TurtleDude · May 22, 2010

Re: N.J. Gov. Chris Christie swiftly vetoes 'millionaires tax,' property tax rebate b

digsbe said:
How so? Would it be fair to tax the poor and middle class more? It seems logical to tax those who have more and are financially stable enough to pay.

If many of these guys can spend over $100 on fancy meals, why can't they help foot the bill for New Jersey?

if you don't tax those who use most of the government services, they have no incentive to conserve those services. if people pay no income tax, their votes are easily bought by those who promise them more social spending that others pay for.

digsbe · May 22, 2010

Re: N.J. Gov. Chris Christie swiftly vetoes 'millionaires tax,' property tax rebate b

TurtleDude said:
if you don't tax those who use most of the government services, they have no incentive to conserve those services. if people pay no income tax, their votes are easily bought by those who promise them more social spending that others pay for.

So the poor and middle class should pay more because they use more social services?

In that case they would be more of a purchased product instead of a social service.

The government allocates the funds, it's not like they can write checks how any amount they want to waste at the government's expense.

All I'm saying is that the millionaires have the money at their comfortable disposal to pay more in taxes.

New Jersey is financially hurting and something must be done.

Why should a higher tax burden be put upon those who can't afford to pay? Especially during this time of economic crisis.

Real Korimyr #9 · May 22, 2010

Re: N.J. Gov. Chris Christie swiftly vetoes 'millionaires tax,' property tax rebate b

Ockham said:
I'm still not cynical enough to think that the majority of citizens in NJ will punish Christie for doing what he stated he would do, and for the reasons he's doing it.

Wait and see. Maybe you're right.

Ockham said:
IF he continues to do what he's doing - he'll be rewarded because a door knob knows we cannot raise taxes on people stressed for decades with high taxes, during this economy, and with a 33 billion dollar budget deficit grown over decades.

That 33 billion dollar deficit is exactly why New Jersey needs to raise taxes at the same time that it cuts programs. I'm not familiar with New Jersey politics, so what programs is Governor Christie proposing to cut?

RightinNYC · May 22, 2010

Re: N.J. Gov. Chris Christie swiftly vetoes 'millionaires tax,' property tax rebate b

The Giant Noodle said:
Why would you be FOR this???
Do you understand that republicans are just as bad if not WORSE than demon-rats on spending!??!
The Gov aint chopping any programs now is he??

digsbe said:
Isn't Christie himself a wealthy man? Possible a millionaire? New Jersey is in tons of debt and he vetoed a bill that would help reduce that debt by having people with the ability to pay go free. What he did was fiscally irresponsible and bad for New Jersey. The man runs on cutting costs and reducing the debt, but he is unwilling to raise taxes or tax those who are most able to pay.

At the same time that he vetoed this tax increase, he also vetoed a property tax rebate, aka new spending.

Renae · May 23, 2010

Re: N.J. Gov. Chris Christie swiftly vetoes 'millionaires tax,' property tax rebate b

digsbe said:
How so? Would it be fair to tax the poor and middle class more? It seems logical to tax those who have more and are financially stable enough to pay.

If many of these guys can spend over $100 on fancy meals, why can't they help foot the bill for New Jersey?

Why should they foot more of the bill just because they can "afford it"?

Ockham · May 23, 2010

Re: N.J. Gov. Chris Christie swiftly vetoes 'millionaires tax,' property tax rebate b

CaptainCourtesy said:
This was not about supporting Christie. It was about NOT supporting the idiot teachers unions who didn't agree to salary freezes. Even Christie, when supporting the rejection of school funding said this.

Rejecting the teachers unions does not necessarily equate to supporting Christie.

I'll disagree.. the referendum identified the voters were not willing to increase their taxes to support more funding of the schools for a variety of reasons. In my own district and township, they wanted at first 9 million for a new gym, air conditioning, and solar panels. That was voted down. Then they came back 2 months later for 11.2 million and added parking, a new roof, a new heater plus the former items. Voted down. Then finally they got the message and split the amount and dropped some stuff - so it was 2.8 million for just the "necessities" and a separate voted on item for the gym, solar panels, roof and air conditioning. BOTH voted down.

At the end of this was a rejection to increased taxes to pay for the borrowed money. All throughout, teachers unions were told they have to give up some things and start paying because the state is $33 billion in debt.

Hence, why you're view of raising taxes is frankly... ludicrous. We just heard from voters saying very clearly, succinctly and loudly: NO. Something the unions, assembly liberals and teachers apparently do not yet understand - to their detriment.

On this one issue, Christie does have the support of the voters. That does not translate into all issues of course.

Ockham · May 23, 2010

Re: N.J. Gov. Chris Christie swiftly vetoes 'millionaires tax,' property tax rebate b

MrVicchio said:
Why should they foot more of the bill just because they can "afford it"?

Well because they're successful and according to NJ State liberals ... they owe the rest of us. Why? Well, because they do... that's the best reason they can come up with. :shrug:

DrunkenAsparagus · May 23, 2010

Re: N.J. Gov. Chris Christie swiftly vetoes 'millionaires tax,' property tax rebate b

NJ residents are already some of the most heavily taxed people in the nation. Raising taxes more will do more harm than good.

washunut · May 23, 2010

Re: N.J. Gov. Chris Christie swiftly vetoes 'millionaires tax,' property tax rebate b

digsbe said:
So the poor and middle class should pay more because they use more social services?

In that case they would be more of a purchased product instead of a social service.

The government allocates the funds, it's not like they can write checks how any amount they want to waste at the government's expense.

All I'm saying is that the millionaires have the money at their comfortable disposal to pay more in taxes.

New Jersey is financially hurting and something must be done.

Why should a higher tax burden be put upon those who can't afford to pay? Especially during this time of economic crisis.

Maybe instead of debating who should pay the debate should be on what we are paying for.

You may also want to think about the long term consequences of taxing " millionaires" versus the short term gain. A lot of rich wall street types moved to NJ to escape the high taxes in NY. If CT was smart they would LOWER taxes on " millionaires" and attract those folks from NJ. I would be very happy to have them move to my state and pay fair taxes.

ReverendHellh0und · May 23, 2010

Re: N.J. Gov. Chris Christie swiftly vetoes 'millionaires tax,' property tax rebate b

The Giant Noodle said:
Why would you be FOR this???
Do you understand that republicans are just as bad if not WORSE than demon-rats on spending!??!
The Gov aint chopping any programs now is he??
So where are they going to get the money? Not from the poor! They take some of it. Not from the lower middle class to the upper middle class either.

So where are they going to get the money?
They dont have the balls to kick illegal mexicans out to help their state economy.
Are they going to BORROW the money!?!?

Actually he is.... :shrug:

CaptainCourtesy · May 23, 2010

Re: N.J. Gov. Chris Christie swiftly vetoes 'millionaires tax,' property tax rebate b

Ockham said:
I'll disagree.. the referendum identified the voters were not willing to increase their taxes to support more funding of the schools for a variety of reasons. In my own district and township, they wanted at first 9 million for a new gym, air conditioning, and solar panels. That was voted down. Then they came back 2 months later for 11.2 million and added parking, a new roof, a new heater plus the former items. Voted down. Then finally they got the message and split the amount and dropped some stuff - so it was 2.8 million for just the "necessities" and a separate voted on item for the gym, solar panels, roof and air conditioning. BOTH voted down.

At the end of this was a rejection to increased taxes to pay for the borrowed money. All throughout, teachers unions were told they have to give up some things and start paying because the state is $33 billion in debt.

Hence, why you're view of raising taxes is frankly... ludicrous. We just heard from voters saying very clearly, succinctly and loudly: NO. Something the unions, assembly liberals and teachers apparently do not yet understand - to their detriment.

On this one issue, Christie does have the support of the voters. That does not translate into all issues of course.

Disagree all you like. Doesn't change the fact that Christie is pissed that the teacher's unions didn't accept his desired cuts, and he specifically targetted the districts where the unions rejected them, specifically encouraging those voters to vote NO, regardless. Voters heard "evil unions might cause taxes to go up" and acted accordingly. Do things need to be cut? Sure. Are the unions wrong? Sure. But that doesn't equate to what he is doing.

And as far as the voters not wanting taxes to go up, that is an appeal to the numbers logical fallacy. It wouldn't be the first time that voters were wrong.

hazlnut · May 23, 2010

Re: N.J. Gov. Chris Christie swiftly vetoes 'millionaires tax,' property tax rebate b

MrVicchio said:
N.J. Gov. Chris Christie swiftly vetoes 'millionaires tax,' property tax rebate bills | - NJ.com

Man this guy didn't just talk the talk, he's walking the walk. Go Gov. Christie Go!

A) I challenge Vicchio to accurately explain both sides (Millionaire's Tax, prop Tax rebate, prescriptions for seniors) and then defend the veto.

B) The Governor claims he found the money to cover the prescription program. Fair enough, let's hear it.

C) Vicchio, for two years I've been listening you support the notion that anytime a big crowd shows up, the government should listen and do what they say... (well, you actually only say that when the crowd is anti-Obama, anti-Dem) however, apply that idea, the big crowd is right, to this followup story:

Christie veto stirs anger in Trenton

A crowd estimated at 35,000 rallied outside the Statehouse to protest his rejection of the so-called millionaire's tax.

My position on this story is that I don't live in N.J.

My position on the OP is that once again, far-rigties rally behind something that 'sounds' like smart fiscal conservatism (which I support), but really don't have all the facts. Economics and public policy are complicated, there are no easy solutions--you can't give a tax rebates without paying for them. You can't provide programs to seniors without paying for them. If you cut existing programs and rebates, you will have saved money, but the political fallout may be too costly. Everybody has a grandmother.

Note: I searched through several articles on this story and couldn't get specifics on the property tax rebates--but it appears that seniors felt they were a benefit to them. So, maybe they were on condos and town homes.

Ockham · May 23, 2010

Re: N.J. Gov. Chris Christie swiftly vetoes 'millionaires tax,' property tax rebate b

CaptainCourtesy said:
Disagree all you like.

I intend to - often and loudly.

CaptainCourtesy said:
Doesn't change the fact that Christie is pissed that the teacher's unions didn't accept his desired cuts, and he specifically targetted the districts where the unions rejected them, specifically encouraging those voters to vote NO, regardless.

So you have some citation identifying or quoting him being angry (ie. "pissed" and I'm assuming you're not using the British definition). Please - do post the link since you claim it's a "fact". As you can tell, I'll disagree with your "facts" as they're not... facts at all. They're your belief or wish.

CaptainCourtesy said:
Voters heard "evil unions might cause taxes to go up" and acted accordingly. Do things need to be cut? Sure. Are the unions wrong? Sure. But that doesn't equate to what he is doing.

I'm still waiting for you to describe what you think is so bad about his cuts. I asked for specifics before and you didn't provide them. Is this a trend on your part or will you continue to spout the state's liberal talking points. You're don't happen to be on the State Assembly perchance?

CaptainCourtesy said:
And as far as the voters not wanting taxes to go up, that is an appeal to the numbers logical fallacy. It wouldn't be the first time that voters were wrong.

Logical fallacy or not - that IS a fact which is in the voting record. And isn't it just so quaint that the liberals know better than everyone else. You're posts are becoming ideologically cliche. Like it or not, the voters have the last word - right or wrong.

CaptainCourtesy · May 23, 2010

Re: N.J. Gov. Chris Christie swiftly vetoes 'millionaires tax,' property tax rebate b

Ockham said:
I intend to - often and loudly.

Good for you. As do I.

So you have some citation identifying or quoting him being angry (ie. "pissed" and I'm assuming you're not using the British definition). Please - do post the link since you claim it's a "fact". As you can tell, I'll disagree with your "facts" as they're not... facts at all. They're your belief or wish.

No, they are facts, even though you wish they were not. Here are quotes and the link to those quotes:

The past month has seen Gov. Chris Christie reduce state aid to schools by $820 million, then pick a noisy fight with the state’s largest teachers union, even accusing some members on Monday of using children as "drug mules" to ferry information about whether their parents planned to vote.

Christie has also tried to force unions to accept salary freezes by urging voters to reject budgets in districts where teachers have not agreed to take a one-year wage freeze and contribute at least 1.5 percent of their salaries toward their health benefits.

N.J. voters make choices about school spending | - NJ.com

Exactly as I said. This is about his fight with the teachers unions and he is trying to influence certain districts on that fact. I don't agree with the teachers unions, but he's playing hardball because of his fight with them.

I'm still waiting for you to describe what you think is so bad about his cuts. I asked for specifics before and you didn't provide them. Is this a trend on your part or will you continue to spout the state's liberal talking points. You're don't happen to be on the State Assembly perchance?

All I see from you are conservative talking points... which seems to be the extent of your style. Some schools are losing music, drama, and athletic programs. With positions being cut, class size will increase, and the amount of AP classes in some schools will be reduced because schools can no longer justify having small class size, which many AP's are. The Bloustein Scholarship is being put on hold, and might be eliminated. This is what I know, thus far.

Logical fallacy or not - that IS a fact which is in the voting record. And isn't it just so quaint that the liberals know better than everyone else. You're posts are becoming ideologically cliche. Like it or not, the voters have the last word - right or wrong.

Right or wrong, voters do have the last word. And, it's pretty easy to manipulate voters with the right words. And YOU are the only one talking about ideology, demonstrating your inability to see past it.

TurtleDude · May 23, 2010

Re: N.J. Gov. Chris Christie swiftly vetoes 'millionaires tax,' property tax rebate b

digsbe said:
So the poor and middle class should pay more because they use more social services?

In that case they would be more of a purchased product instead of a social service.

The government allocates the funds, it's not like they can write checks how any amount they want to waste at the government's expense.

All I'm saying is that the millionaires have the money at their comfortable disposal to pay more in taxes.

New Jersey is financially hurting and something must be done.

Why should a higher tax burden be put upon those who can't afford to pay? Especially during this time of economic crisis.

why do I and others who are high net tax payers have a duty to pay for the load of those who aren't industrious enough. Why does the existence of someone create a claim on someone else's wealth

Using your logic, as long as a government is irresponsible and panders to those who want more and more entitlements, the rich have an unlimited duty to pay and pay and pay

what do they get in return?

Renae · May 23, 2010

Re: N.J. Gov. Chris Christie swiftly vetoes 'millionaires tax,' property tax rebate b

hazlnut said:
A) I challenge Vicchio to accurately explain both sides (Millionaire's Tax, prop Tax rebate, prescriptions for seniors) and then defend the veto.

When you start explaining in great deal, both sides of any issue you take a side on, I will consider this. Otherwise, what's the point? Oh wait.. I'm responding, and yet not doing as you CHALLENGE! Obviously I don't have a clue why I support Gov. Christie's veto, nor why the opposition is upset. Just blindly praddling on cause it's a "Conservative" doing it.
:roll:

hazlnut said:
B) The Governor claims he found the money to cover the prescription program. Fair enough, let's hear it.

I think the program should be ended personally. Such programs merely lead to bloated gov't. Regardless of the well intended reasonings to create such.

hazlnut said:
C) Vicchio, for two years I've been listening you support the notion that anytime a big crowd shows up, the government should listen and do what they say... (well, you actually only say that when the crowd is anti-Obama, anti-Dem) however, apply that idea, the big crowd is right, to this followup story:

WTF are you talking about? Where do I support big crowds and Gov't should listen to them? I have no idea what you are on about here. Seriously.

hazlnut said:
Christie veto stirs anger in Trenton

Anger... woah.. he shouldn't have done it then!!! :shock: :roll:

hazlnut said:
My position on this story is that I don't live in N.J.

and....

hazlnut said:
My position on the OP is that once again, far-rigties rally behind something that 'sounds' like smart fiscal conservatism (which I support), but really don't have all the facts. Economics and public policy are complicated, there are no easy solutions--you can't give a tax rebates without paying for them. You can't provide programs to seniors without paying for them. If you cut existing programs and rebates, you will have saved money, but the political fallout may be too costly. Everybody has a grandmother.

Note: I searched through several articles on this story and couldn't get specifics on the property tax rebates--but it appears that seniors felt they were a benefit to them. So, maybe they were on condos and town homes.

Gov't shouldn't ever subsidize people.

Doing so is too dangerous.

RyrineaHaruno · May 23, 2010

Re: N.J. Gov. Chris Christie swiftly vetoes 'millionaires tax,' property tax rebate b

The reason is, because you get more in money, and the fact this is how the system works. Plus, the fact that the rich 1% tend to not pay their fair part of the tax burden which I THINK is the truth.

I think this sums it up pretty well.

Taxation in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I stumbled upon this article while getting information, and this is one of the richest men in America complain we tax him too little. So the man who is one of the richest men in America, and he thinks we tax him too little that is funny is it not. I think he on the right track the person who get more money should have to pay more in taxes.

RightinNYC · May 23, 2010

Re: N.J. Gov. Chris Christie swiftly vetoes 'millionaires tax,' property tax rebate b

RyrineaHaruno said:
The reason is, because you get more in money, and the fact this is how the system works. Plus, the fact that the rich 1% tend to not pay their fair part of the tax burden which I THINK is the truth.

I think this sums it up pretty well.

That article has some of the worst reasoning I've seen in a long time:

The rich should pay more taxes, because the rich get more from the government. Consider defense, for example, which makes up 20% of the budget. Defending the country benefits everyone; but it benefits the rich more, because they have more to defend. It's the same principle as insurance: if you have a bigger house or a fancier car, you pay more to insure it.

Social security payments, which make up another 20% of the budget, are dependent on income-- if you've put more into the system, you get higher payments when you retire.

Investments in the nation's infrastructure-- transportation, education, research & development, energy, police subsidies, the courts, etc.-- again are more useful the more you have. The interstates and airports benefit interstate commerce and people who can travel, not ghetto dwellers. Energy is used disproportionately by the rich and by industry.

As for public education, the better public schools are the ones attended by the moderately well off. The very well off ship their offspring off to private schools; but it is their companies that benefit from a well-educated public. (If you don't think that's a benefit, go start up an engineering firm, or even a factory, in El Salvador. Or Watts.)

Just....no.

I stumbled upon this article while getting information, and this is one of the richest men in America complain we tax him too little. So the man who is one of the richest men in America, and he thinks we tax him too little that is funny is it not. I think he on the right track the person who get more money should have to pay more in taxes.

Buffett also thought we should have scrapped the health care bill and thinks Obama's proposed bank tax is a load of ****. Do you think he was right on those things? If not, why should we listen to him on this?

WI Crippler · May 23, 2010

Re: N.J. Gov. Chris Christie swiftly vetoes 'millionaires tax,' property tax rebate b

RyrineaHaruno said:
I think he on the right track the person who get more money should have to pay more in taxes.

Don't they already do this?

Ockham · May 23, 2010

Re: N.J. Gov. Chris Christie swiftly vetoes 'millionaires tax,' property tax rebate b

CaptainCourtesy said:
No, they are facts, even though you wish they were not. Here are quotes and the link to those quotes:

Nothing in the article identified Christie was "pissed", but it did identify the unions were. From the link you provided...

Christie’s fight with the NJEA has drawn anger from the union, and criticism from other quarters.

My point here is - attributing "emotions" to a situation where evidence doesn't back it up to bolster your argument is a little cheap and not necessary. Even the anger identified by the unions is not directly quoted but attributed by the situation. And lastly - anger is subjective except in extreme cases where video is present.

CaptainCourtesy said:
Exactly as I said. This is about his fight with the teachers unions and he is trying to influence certain districts on that fact. I don't agree with the teachers unions, but he's playing hardball because of his fight with them.

Sure he is... and what he's asking is reasonable and even easy compared to the private sector and what we have to pay. I don't see this as a "fight" of which you attribute anger and being "pissed". I just don't see it in the evidence.

CaptainCourtesy said:
All I see from you are conservative talking points... which seems to be the extent of your style.

I don't follow talking points I follow what I think is right. You want to try and cheapen that by making accusations - be my guest. Doesn't change a thing as far as I'm concerned and I'm not changing my "style" for anybody. If that's what you have to rely on because of your weak arguement and lack of fact - that's just sad.

CaptainCourtesy said:
Some schools are losing music, drama, and athletic programs. With positions being cut, class size will increase, and the amount of AP classes in some schools will be reduced because schools can no longer justify having small class size, which many AP's are. The Bloustein Scholarship is being put on hold, and might be eliminated. This is what I know, thus far.

That's okay. Mom and Dad will have to dig into their pockets and pay for music, drama, athletic programs. Eliminating a scholorship here and there is no big deal. There's the GI Bill, there's working for college credits, there's the Federal lending system now, so there's plenty of alternatives. Sure, it's a little harder but so what. I went into the Army and then to college with no help and did just fine and came out the better for it. No sympathy from me if kids have to assert themselves and work for what they want. Welcome to the real world.

CaptainCourtesy said:
Right or wrong, voters do have the last word. And, it's pretty easy to manipulate voters with the right words. And YOU are the only one talking about ideology, demonstrating your inability to see past it.

My view is a way of life. I walk what I talk. If more people did that we'd have much less problems IMO. Regarding manipulation - that's part of politics of both Democrats and Republicans. In NJ, it's Democrats and have been and largely still is. Facts again are what you don't want to address nor the $33 billion dollar debt, migration out of the state, entitlement spending ... etc. We finally have to do something about it and Democrat ideology got us here. Voters in this case have given Democrats in NJ the benefit of the doubt for decades and here we are - broke. I use the Obama defense here normally used by Democrats... time for a CHANGE. Don't forget, people can still move out of state if they don't have the stomach for it.

TurtleDude · May 24, 2010

Re: N.J. Gov. Chris Christie swiftly vetoes 'millionaires tax,' property tax rebate b

RyrineaHaruno said:
The reason is, because you get more in money, and the fact this is how the system works. Plus, the fact that the rich 1% tend to not pay their fair part of the tax burden which I THINK is the truth.

I think this sums it up pretty well.

Taxation in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I stumbled upon this article while getting information, and this is one of the richest men in America complain we tax him too little. So the man who is one of the richest men in America, and he thinks we tax him too little that is funny is it not. I think he on the right track the person who get more money should have to pay more in taxes.

nonsense. The top 1% pay 40% of the income tax and almost all the death confiscation tax. Are you so deluded into thinking the top 1% use anywhere NEAR 40% of the government services?

I don't care what one ultra rich billionaire says. He is engaged in ingratiation

you might ask what he is doing with his estate=the government gets nothing

THe question you need to answer--why do I have a duty to pay for stuff you use

TurtleDude · May 24, 2010

Re: N.J. Gov. Chris Christie swiftly vetoes 'millionaires tax,' property tax rebate b

WI Crippler said:
Don't they already do this?

they would under a flat tax or a NST

however, the votes of people like our young income redistributionist could not be bought by dem politicians by promising him more and more goodies that he wont face a tax hike to pay for

the rich actually need the government less than the middle and lower classes.

Taylor · May 25, 2010

Re: N.J. Gov. Chris Christie swiftly vetoes 'millionaires tax,' property tax rebate b

digsbe said:
Millionaires have the money, and New Jersey needs it.

That's a great attitude if your goal is get your highest taxpayers to leave the state. How does that help NJ?

Boomyal · May 25, 2010

Re: N.J. Gov. Chris Christie swiftly vetoes 'millionaires tax,' property tax rebate b

RyrineaHaruno said:
...... I think he on the right track the person who get more money should have to pay more in taxes.

Hmmmm, what am I missing here? I thought they already did, by a huge margin.

Oh, now I get it. Someone forgot to read the Tenth Commandment. But then it has been outlawed, hasn't it!!!:doh

N.J. Gov. Chris Christie swiftly vetoes 'millionaires tax,' property tax rebate bills

Truth will set you free

warrior of the wetlands

Truth will set you free

Not Myself, I'm a Replica of Me

Girthless

Noblesse oblige

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Devourer of Poor Children

I don't respect you.

I'm a Jedi Master, Yo

Noblesse oblige

I'm a Jedi Master, Yo

warrior of the wetlands

Girthless

Noblesse oblige

warrior of the wetlands

warrior of the wetlands

Member