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Sugarcoating Socialism the French Way

so·cial·ism
Function: noun
1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state

Perhaps you should try a different buzz-word; the programs you decry describe civilization, not socialism.
 
Z3n said:
I definately agree. The problem though is that this concept of "Socialism" is so evacuated of any actual meaning. Socialism used to mean literally being in control of what you own, and public ownership of the economy...but there is a second manifestation which is statist. It's all about the :spin:
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How can you be in control of what you own and have public ownership of the economy when what you own is a business, or a farm, or an oil refinery?
 
JustinCase said:
so·cial·ism
Function: noun
1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership
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Rectify "collective" in your argument.
 
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JustinCase said:
so·cial·ism
Function: noun
1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
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We live in a corporatist system in which political capitalists within government and corporatist elites within big business enjoy a symbiotic relationship under which individual liberty is crushed beneath the iron boot of the state.

Perhaps you should try a different buzz-word;
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You're right "socialism" is the wrong word for what he described, it's not called socialism it's called outright theft.

the programs you decry describe civilization, not socialism.
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If by civilization you mean a society in which a group of men take a vote to rob a man, allowing the man to be robbed to vote as well, then upon winning a majority decision to rob the man do in fact rob him, then call it liberty, then ya sure civilization it is. :roll:
 
Agent Ferris said:
You're right "socialism" is the wrong word for what he described, it's not called socialism it's called outright theft.
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The collective aspects of socialism are indeed theft....especially in a society with a progressive tax system... where only a selected few are burdened with funding said society.
 
JustinCase said:
That wasn't an argument, it was a definition - what do you want to be corrected?
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"Perhaps you should try a different buzz-word; the programs you decry describe civilization, not socialism"


The above was your argument, no? Your own definition included "collective"...My argument is welfare, WIC, foodstamps are collective, socialist aspects of American society..."buzz word" be damned.
 
Boo Radley said:
There is no socialism here. And there won't be. But people will use the word to try and derail a good many decent efforts to improve life. It's a very old tactic, very unoriginal.
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There in lay the difference.. you expect all things equal regardless of effort or achievement.. everybody gets a trophy.. it's all about the Common Good..

We can agree you don not HAVE to call it socialism, nor the President and his ilk. we can agree though it is clearly Marxist-totalitarianism!

"from one according to their ability to those according to need"
"Spread the wealth"
"until everyone's house is equal"
"Social Justice, not Equal-Justice!"
" Give THEM the MONEY,, give THEM the MONEY"

You can call it what you want.. it is a sad day for last stand of liberty in the world and many of you support it and defend it.. even more sad!
 
JustinCase said:
so·cial·ism
Function: noun
1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state

Perhaps you should try a different buzz-word; the programs you decry describe civilization, not socialism.
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There it is. These entitlement programs are socialist as defined by definition #1.

socialism
"any of various economic and political theories advocating governmental ownership and administration of the distribution of goods"
 
webrockk said:
Good or bad, welfare is a form of socialism, WIC is a form of socialism, the food stamp program is a form of socialism.

Any time private, and lawfully aquired property (money) is taken from one person with equal, unalienable rights to succeed or fail and given to another ...with identical equal, unalienable rights to succeed or fail at the hand of government, a form of socialism has occurred.
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I would have hated for you to been born poor, black, gay, African, disabled, so on...

Really, your ideas only work because you were born as a male and probably white to American parents who had middle income jobs and could afford to provide you with financial stability to ensure a proper childhood.

Unfortunately, the World does not work like that. The American Dream negates and ignores that unless you happen to be born into the smallest of cliques. You are doomed to a life of poverty and crime. Yes, extraordinary cases occur but they are exceptions that confirm the rule. Without some sort of leveling of society to ensure a fair start for all persons, society will break down. Look at the inner cities of the United States.

Additionally, rights are not inalienable (see: Hannah Arendt)...rights are legal conceptions that only are applicable as long as their is one, cohersive legal system that respects them and enforces them. But that is a debate for another thread.
 
Whigfield said:
... could afford to provide you with financial stability to ensure a proper childhood.
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That dirty little concept of "Personal Responsibility" rears its ugly head again.
 
Whigfield said:
The American Dream negates and ignores that unless you happen to be born into the smallest of cliques. You are doomed to a life of poverty and crime.
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What a load of bullcrap.
Whigfield said:
Yes, extraordinary cases occur but they are exceptions that confirm the rule. Without some sort of leveling of society to ensure a fair start for all persons, society will break down. Look at the inner cities of the United States.
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The purported "leveling" that was done in this country with foodstamps and welfare helped create the problems in inner cities.
 
webrockk said:
"Perhaps you should try a different buzz-word; the programs you decry describe civilization, not socialism"


The above was your argument, no? Your own definition included "collective"...My argument is welfare, WIC, foodstamps are collective, socialist aspects of American society..."buzz word" be damned.
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Yes, the dictionary definition (not mine) included the word "collective"; unless you think I am an editor of said publication, I don't see how you expect me to "rectify" that. Socialism means there is no private ownership or control of property - it becomes a "buzz-word" when it's applied to social programs that you don't like.
 
webrockk said:
That dirty little concept of "Personal Responsibility" rears its ugly head again.
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How can you expect a 10 year old child to be "Personally Responsible"? You are just lucky that the roll of the dice made you male, white and from a middle-class American family. Another roll of the dice, it could have been much different. There is the problem. Why are we penalising people for things they cannot change?

I thinks its in everyone's self-interest that all members of society can have a level start in life and then rise and fall on their merits.
 
Taylor said:
What a load of bullcrap.

The purported "leveling" that was done in this country with foodstamps and welfare helped create the problems in inner cities.
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That is total hogwash. The idea of the Cadilliac welfare mom has been debunked over and over again. Scholars such as Conley in Wealth and Poverty in America have demonstrated that poverty in the United States is systemic and cyclical because of the lack of access to the tools to exit poverty.

Foodstamps and welfare are barely subsistence mechanisms in the US. I personally don't know how people live on it.
 
ConservaBill said:
There in lay the difference.. you expect all things equal regardless of effort or achievement.. everybody gets a trophy.. it's all about the Common Good..

We can agree you don not HAVE to call it socialism, nor the President and his ilk. we can agree though it is clearly Marxist-totalitarianism!

"from one according to their ability to those according to need"
"Spread the wealth"
"until everyone's house is equal"
"Social Justice, not Equal-Justice!"
" Give THEM the MONEY,, give THEM the MONEY"

You can call it what you want.. it is a sad day for last stand of liberty in the world and many of you support it and defend it.. even more sad!
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Where have I said any of this. Seriously, stop spewing partisan nonsense and actually address what is being said.
 
Whigfield said:
How can you expect a 10 year old child to be "Personally Responsible"? You are just lucky that the roll of the dice made you male, white and from a middle-class American family. Another roll of the dice, it could have been much different. There is the problem. Why are we penalising people for things they cannot change?

I thinks its in everyone's self-interest that all members of society can have a level start in life and then rise and fall on their merits.
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In as few words as possible, I was speaking to personal responsibility exhibited by those that don't become government reliant brood mares if they cannot afford to create a "proper" environment and foundation for success of their offspring.
 
Yes, but that is not the choice of the child. The child does not have a choice where they are raised and it is the duty of society and the state that every child has an equal opportunity in life. Otherwise, its just classism and its damaging to the economy, societial relations and government spending. Additionally, its unjust and unfair.
 
Whigfield said:
Yes, but that is not the choice of the child....
....Additionally, its unjust and unfair.
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I agree. it is unjust and unfair for those wollowing in abject, generational poverty to continue bringing the same misery on their innocent offspring.

I agree. It is unjust and unfair to society to procreate when one cannot afford to feed themselves, and then expects...no DEMANDS public aid to take up where personal responsibility left off...
 
webrockk said:
I agree. it is unjust and unfair for those wollowing in abject, generational poverty to continue bringing the same misery on their innocent offspring.

I agree. It is unjust and unfair to society to procreate when one cannot afford to feed themselves, and then expects...no DEMANDS public aid to take up where personal responsibility left off...
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It's just a bunch of trash isn't it?
 
Poverty creates poverty and leans to higher birth rates. Why do you think the "North" has low birth rates and the "Global South" has high birth rates?

Best way to tackle both problems is help bring this and the next generation out of systemic poverty.
 
Whigfield said:
Poverty creates poverty and leans to higher birth rates. Why do you think the "North" has low birth rates and the "Global South" has high birth rates?

Best way to tackle both problems is help bring this and the next generation out of systemic poverty.
How do you plan to do that?
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Whigfield said:
That is total hogwash. The idea of the Cadilliac welfare mom has been debunked over and over again. Scholars such as Conley in Wealth and Poverty in America have demonstrated that poverty in the United States is systemic and cyclical because of the lack of access to the tools to exit poverty.

Foodstamps and welfare are barely subsistence mechanisms in the US. I personally don't know how people live on it.
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Well speaking as someone who has trudged through literally hundreds of section-8 units.. how was it put ... oh yeah.. HOGWASH!

A GOOD 80% of these units have larger TVs than I do.....
more than half have stereos FAR better than my yardsale-bookshelf system..
more pre-noon beers in a single day than I had seen in my entire life prior..
Some of those you speak of need the help.. most are just mindless, generational slaves to the DNC..

Save the Marxist, elitist literature for the birdcage where it is best suited for duty!
 
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