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Thread: Donít shoot: NRA bans guns from its annual meeting

  1. #81
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    Re: Donít shoot: NRA bans guns from its annual meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    (If I have reason to believe I could not trust you in my home with a gun, I don't want you in my house at all.)
    Generally, that's my personal stance, as well.

    But let's say one of my wife's friends decided to get loaded even though she had her kids with her, and her ex husband shows up and he's armed. I'm not going to tell the guy he can't come in, but I'd rather he not be armed in that volatile situation.

    But at the same time, I am allowing him in even though I would prefer it if he wasn't in my home at all, so it fits the quoted sentence anyway.
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  2. #82
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    Re: Donít shoot: NRA bans guns from its annual meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    What if there was something forcing me into the building?

    Let's say my X came over with the kids for a b-day party, had a little to much to drink and is leaving with a friend. She calls me and tells me to pick up the kids.

    You don't know I'm armed when I approach because I carry concealed. Once in your home you notice something, note that it's a firearm and tell me to leave.

    Kids aren't ready and the only person I know is my drunk X.

    I'm not leaving until my kids are good to go.

    I have a right to protect my children. I have a right in the care, control and custody of my children. By trying to force me out you are trying to violate my rights.

    Not to sound like an ass, but that's something I would be willing to go to jail for. I would have no problem telling my NCO that I got arrested for trespassing because I wouldn't leave my children alone with my drunken X and a group of strangers.

    I would be cool and civil with you, but if push came to shove, I'm not abandoning my kids.
    Inaccurate. You either put the gun in the car or wait in the car for the kids on the street.

    You have no right to do as you wish on anyone else's property.

    You have a right to free speech, but a bar can kick you out for cussing if they want to. They can also tell you not to bring a gun in. I can do the same in my house. I can kick you out of my house for ANY reason I choose (say, I don't like your T-shirt) and if you stay, you are breaking the law.

    This is pretty established regardless of what reason you might come up with.

  3. #83
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    Re: Donít shoot: NRA bans guns from its annual meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by FilmFestGuy View Post
    Inaccurate. You either put the gun in the car or wait in the car for the kids on the street.

    You have no right to do as you wish on anyone else's property.

    You have a right to free speech, but a bar can kick you out for cussing if they want to. They can also tell you not to bring a gun in. I can do the same in my house. I can kick you out of my house for ANY reason I choose (say, I don't like your T-shirt) and if you stay, you are breaking the law.

    This is pretty established regardless of what reason you might come up with.
    After I've 'taken posession' of the children from my X, if you try to kick me out without letting me take my children, you are kidnapping.

    A citizen is authorized to use deadly force to stop a kidnapping, so if you insist on escalating the situation I suggest you take great care. 30 seconds of tolerating me in your home isn't worth your life, but my children are worth mine.
    Last edited by Jerry; 05-17-10 at 07:54 PM.

  4. #84
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    Re: Donít shoot: NRA bans guns from its annual meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    He's the one pointing a firearm at others, not me, I'm there to collect my kids and go. If anyone is the hazard, he is.
    You'd be the one that has turned into an armed intruder. Deadly force is authorized at that point.

    I'm sorry, "actively involved in domestic" what?
    Sorry, Actively involved in domestic disputes.


    Oh you think I'm irate throughout all this.

    Since I didn't freak out when I walked in on my X and her boyfriend, and yes I was armed at the time, there's no reason to assume I would be irate here. Picking up my children is a pleasant event I look forward to every day.
    I don't know you. There's every reason to assume you would be irate here.

    The homeowner is the one causing problems here. I'm here to get the kids and go, nothing else.
    The person who makes the choice to become an armed intruder is:

    1. Endangering his own children
    2. Putting himself in a situation where he can be legally shot
    3. In violation of the law and is infringing upon another person's property rights.



    Forget the firearms, he could not like the shirt I'm wearing. Let's say it has a political message or something. He sees it, tells me I can't wear that shirt in his house and to leave.
    His prerogative.


    That's fine. I'll leave...with the kids. I'm not being defiant against him, I'm complying. I'm leaving.
    Nothing wrong with that. And if he told you to wait at the door while they gathered your kids, that's what you'd have to do.

    Ok, so this time let's forget the firearms AND the kids. Let's say I need to get my X's copy of our last joint tax return. X leaves it on the kitchen counter at this same house. I show up, house is open so I go in, everyone's in the back chill'n. I see my X, she tells me the file's on the counter, then the home owner sees the political message on my shirt and tells me to leave. Fine, I'm leaving....with my personal tax paperwork.
    Why are you walking into other people's homes of your own accord?

    The homeowner would be totally justified in using violence for that alone. Forget the political t-shirt.
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    Re: Donít shoot: NRA bans guns from its annual meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Not that this proves anything, but:

    # Being necessary to the security of a free State,
    Patrick Henry: "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined...The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun.

    # The right of the people to keep and bear Arms,
    Samuel Adams: "The Constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms."

    # shall not be infringed.
    Thomas Jefferson: "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."


    Founders' Quotes - Jefferson & Hamilton on Duty to be Armed

    Anyone who wants firearms banned form their property is to be justly viewed with deep suspicion.
    uh-oh... here come the quotes.

    Because anything a founding father said 200 years ago (after having just fought a monarchy) is totally relevant to modern day pubic safety issues.

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    Re: Donít shoot: NRA bans guns from its annual meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    You'd be the one that has turned into an armed intruder. Deadly force is authorized at that point.

    Sorry, Actively involved in domestic disputes.

    I don't know you. There's every reason to assume you would be irate here.

    The person who makes the choice to become an armed intruder is:

    1. Endangering his own children
    2. Putting himself in a situation where he can be legally shot
    3. In violation of the law and is infringing upon another person's property rights.

    His prerogative.

    Nothing wrong with that. And if he told you to wait at the door while they gathered your kids, that's what you'd have to do.

    Why are you walking into other people's homes of your own accord?

    The homeowner would be totally justified in using violence for that alone. Forget the political t-shirt.
    I was already in the house when told to leave, and when told to leave I give every indication that I will do so asap. I have no intention of hanging around, I'm not destroying property, I'm not harassing anyone. I'm grabbing my kids and leaving, nothing else.

    That's not trespassing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Why are you walking into other people's homes of your own accord?
    Implied Consent. I was invited over to do something which occurs inside the home and the door was left wide open for anyone showing up for the other event. This is actually quite common especially as we ramp up to the Sturgis Rally.
    Last edited by Jerry; 05-17-10 at 08:11 PM.

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    Re: Donít shoot: NRA bans guns from its annual meeting

    If I were in the home owner's position, I would get the mother and tell the father that she would get the children ready and bring them out to him while he waited off the property.

    That's how I would do it, apparently others would go bonkers and run to their gun cabinet and try to remove me with force. I think my solution is better. If nothing else my solution doesn't kill the buzz.

  8. #88
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    Re: Donít shoot: NRA bans guns from its annual meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    I was already in the house when told to leave, and when told to leave I give every indication that I will do so asap. I have no intention of hanging around, I'm not destroying property, I'm not harassing anyone. I'm grabbing my kids and leaving, nothing else.

    That's not trespassing.
    It is once you refuse to leave immediately. And it definitely is when you walk in oin yur own to get the tax returns.

    But let's stick with the scenario where the kids aren't ready to leave.

    After the owner asks you to leave are you looking at how much time it will take the get the kids to ready to leave and saying "it's only five more seconds. I'm getting my kids and leaving"? If so, then you aren't really doing anything wrong, IMO. If he got crazy over it, he'd be in the wrong.

    But if the time is going to be greater than that, you are essentially putting the kids at greater risk through non-compliance. Then you'd be an active participant in the escalation of things.



    P.S. I was going to say that in the described scenario you'd be better off leaving the gun in the car in the first place, but after thinking about it I realize that you'd be better off entering the unknown situation with it than without it, especially when your kids are involved.
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  9. #89
    Matthew 16:3

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    Re: Donít shoot: NRA bans guns from its annual meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    If I were in the home owner's position, I would get the mother and tell the father that she would get the children ready and bring them out to him while he waited off the property.
    I would've probably had the kids ready to go and at the door waiting for you in the given scenario. That would probably be the best way to deal with it.

    But you also have the ability to ask your ex to get the kids ready while you wait off property.

    If you were alerted to her condition, then presumably she has a phone on her. you would be free step outside and call her or ask the owner to have her get them ready.

    That's how I would do it, apparently others would go bonkers and run to their gun cabinet and try to remove me with force. I think my solution is better. If nothing else my solution doesn't kill the buzz.
    Once you refuse to leave of your own accord, force becomes necessary.
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  10. #90
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    Re: Donít shoot: NRA bans guns from its annual meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Implied Consent. I was invited over to do something which occurs inside the home and the door was left wide open for anyone showing up for the other event. This is actually quite common especially as we ramp up to the Sturgis Rally.
    You were invited by someone other than the homeowner, so there's no implied consent.
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