When does porn become child porn

samsmart said:

That's not what I said. If you note, I said I think that laws should be narrowly written in order to go after adults who exploit children. For teenagers who engage in that kind of behavior I think they should be forced to take mandatory sexuality classes that explains proper sexual behavior in our country and our nation's sex laws. I also think that we should discern between non-violent sex crimes and violent sex crimes as well. A 14-year-old boy who has sex with his girlfriend shouldn't be put on the same level as a 50-year-old man who violently rapes a younger child. A 15-year-old girl who e-mails pics of boobies to her boyfriend should not be treated the same as an adult who runs an underground child porn ring for money.

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Well, all I said- which you claimed not to agree with- was that it's very difficult to protect teens from sexual exploitation by themselves.

When teens have sex with each other, or engage in sexting with their peers, or lie about their ages and use fake IDs in order to participate in softcore "Girls Gone Wild" style porn, or disseminate sexy pictures of themselves a la Vanessa Hudgens... I'm not sure that the law doesn't make things a lot worse when it attempts to intervene.

My perspective on this may be different because I was a teen mom; in fact, I was already a married mom of two by the time I was seventeen.
My family's view on this was not, "Oh you poor victimized child!"
It was, "You chose to do this; now you're no longer a child but a very young grown-up responsible for her own children. Get married, get a job, take care of your kids, and call us if there's some kind of emergency you can't handle."

This attitude served me a lot better in the long run than a punitive approach, or even the whole "poor victimized child" routine, would've.
I've never felt like a victim.
I've never understood why we try to force people to remain children for more than a quarter of their lives.
It doesn't really work, for most people.

1069 said:

Well, all I said- which you claimed not to agree with- was that it's very difficult to protect teens from sexual exploitation by themselves.

When teens have sex with each other, or engage in sexting with their peers, or lie about their ages and use fake IDs in order to participate in softcore "Girls Gone Wild" style porn, or disseminate sexy pictures of themselves a la Vanessa Hudgens... I'm not sure that the law doesn't make things a lot worse when it attempts to intervene.

My perspective on this may be different because I was a teen mom; in fact, I was already a married mom of two by the time I was seventeen.
My family's view on this was not, "Oh you poor victimized child!"
It was, "You chose to do this; now you're no longer a child but a very young grown-up responsible for her own children. Get married, get a job, take care of your kids, and call us if there's some kind of emergency you can't handle."

This attitude served me a lot better in the long run than a punitive approach, or even the whole "poor victimized child" routine, would've.
I've never felt like a victim.
I've never understood why we try to force people to remain children for more than a quarter of their lives.
It doesn't really work, for most people.

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Sounds familiar.

My mother gave my sisters all the sex-ed they needed and then some. At the end of it she told them having sex was ultimatly their decision, but if they came home pregnant she was sending them off to an unwed mother's home.

There comes an age where if you want to act like an adult, then you should be treated like an adult, but be careful what you wish for.

It becomes child porn when the actors are under aged. That is all that matters in my mind, otherwise we run the risk of coming down on people for looking too young when they're actually adults.

Sexual misconduct laws need to change. People get charged with indecent exposure for pissing in alleys, and then they have to register as a sex offender. The case in the OP is an example of how the "justice" system has been given too much broad authority over this matter.

Orion said:

It becomes child porn when the actors are under aged. That is all that matters in my mind, otherwise we run the risk of coming down on people for looking too young when they're actually adults.

Sexual misconduct laws need to change. People get charged with indecent exposure for pissing in alleys, and then they have to register as a sex offender. The case in the OP is an example of how the "justice" system has been given too much broad authority over this matter.

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Even crazier, I remember reading about a pair of teenagers in a sexual relationship, both 16. Legally able to have sex with each other in that state. Took pictures of said acts. The guy was charged with possession of child pornography. They can **** but not take pictures? Pictures that are kept privately? And the girl was not charged with anything... despite being the one who actually took the photo and sent it to the guy. Poor guy is a registered sex offender.

Problem is, good luck being the politician who stands up and says "We're too hard on sexual criminals!"

Jerry said:

Realistic depictions of child porn are illegal because folks don't stop at videos. Pedophilia is something which escalates into abusing actual children.

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Link? Pedophelia leads to child abuse just like preferring adult women leads to rape. Not every pedo acts on his desires.

dontworrybehappy said:

Link? Pedophelia leads to child abuse just like preferring adult women leads to rape. Not every pedo acts on his desires.

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I'll have to ask Capt'n C to chime in with a few links, as it was his links which I saw before and could only offer you a Google search which you can do on your own.

Not everything leads to something else, but some things do lead to others.

Deuce said:

Problem is, good luck being the politician who stands up and says "We're too hard on sexual criminals!"

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It's not that we're too hard on sexual criminals. It's that we're also making sexual criminals out of the wrong people.

HEY!!!! I know that chick!!! :shock: Thats little lupe! :doh

Jerry said:

I'll have to ask Capt'n C to chime in with a few links, as it was his links which I saw before and could only offer you a Google search which you can do on your own.

Not everything leads to something else, but some things do lead to others.

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My links keep coming up that pedophilia has nothing to do with acting out and that most adults who act out on kids don't even fit the definition. There have been serial child molesters who took sexual tests and tested zero attraction to kids. He was acting out for reasons other than sex. In fact, most sex crimes aren't about sex at all.

Here is a nice pile of facts about sexual predators. I believe these facts will SHOCK you as they are NOT what you will hear on Fox News or even CNN. Things like.... the recidivism rate of sex offenders is second lowest only to murder, at 3.3% yet they have by FAR the strictest living restrictions, work restrictions and even longer sentences than many violent crimes. There are guys getting longer sentences for downloading child porn than a murderer gets for killing someone. NO WAY CAN WE CONSTRUE THAT AS JUST. Our nations justice system is HORRIBLE.

In the largest and most comprehensive study ever done of prison recidivism, the Justice Department found that sex offenders were in fact less likely to reoffend than other criminals.

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Predator Panic: Reality Check on Sex Offenders | LiveScience

samsmart said:

It's not that we're too hard on sexual criminals. It's that we're also making sexual criminals out of the wrong people.

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Yes but you can imagine how that politician's next election campaign might go.

I didn't look at the video. but the fact you post it, makes you kinda in the same boat as the other guy, doesn't it??

I tried watching that video but gave up. I couldn't half understand a word she was saying, not to mention her voice grated my only nerve. Then the leer of her supposed boy friend, and the whole thing made me disgusted.

Deuce said:

Yes but you can imagine how that politician's next election campaign might go.

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Actually, I would throw my full support behind the next politician who wants to make better, more nuanced legislation with regards to our sex laws a major campaign issue. On one hand we want to protect our children from exploitation and sexual predators; on the other hand, we want to protect our teenagers from overzealous prosecutors who go after teens who have sex just to get another point in their "win" column. That's probably how I would frame the debate.

Lupe Fuentes is kindof ugly anyways, but I like her for what she did. That took much courage and showed how awesome of a women she is. Now child porn is when the person is under 12. That would be child porn.:doh

samsmart said:

It's not that we're too hard on sexual criminals. It's that we're also making sexual criminals out of the wrong people.

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This is something I agree with big time. I am 23 and still I am pretty young in that i believe it would be ok for me to have a relationship with a consenting 16yr old girl. Is that wrong? Its not just me i'd be ok for other guys and women to do that as well. However, if i am a 30 yr old and i am chasing 16yr olds or even 18yrs i think something would be wrong with me.

Child porn is child porn only if the porn depicts an actual child is engaged in sexual acts.

Overall I think this case is ridiculous.
It is not child-porn unless it has kids in it. Geesh! What ignorance is that.

What's wrong with having a young face, small boobs or a shaving preference?

For a VERY long time people mistook me for being underage - I don't know WHY. I have big boobs, long adult hair, and two children. I was 23 and the server at my sister's wedding gave me apple juice instead of wine for the toast because I *looked* underage. . . Ok - so "looking" young isn't a crime.

Adding - WHY do people think of "hairless" or "completely shaven" and then jump to the conclusion that "child" or "underage" has anything to do with it? Shaven is a sensation-preference and some women (or men) like the feel of skin ON skin.

digsbe said:

I think what happened is technically legal because by the law it's not child porn. However I think they should make it illegal to make pornography using adults that look young like children, it just breeds child molesters and should be a discouraged fetish in society. Technically there were no laws broken so no one should go to jail. Another thing I think that should be illegal is anime porn (or whatever it's called) where they have animated children in it.

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IT breeds child molesters?

Lemme tell you - if someone IS a child molester then they ARE a child molester - you don't *become one* because of something you see late one night, all of a sudden.

If I watch a lot of zombie movies - will that make me a zombie?

spud_meister said:

in regard to the anime porn, i dont know about anywhere else, but in Australia, any depiction of a child engaged in a sex act or the like is counted as child porn, whether it be a photo or a drawing

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In the U.S. there was a similar law on the books signed into law by Clinton. That law was thrown out by SCOTUS.

Feature films like Kids and Romeo and Juliet use adult actors to portray minors having sex.

Child porn is child porn when the person depicted is under the age of 18. The case is ridiculous because she was 18 at the time.

The issue of women being depicted as underage in porn. From a legal standpoint, as long as there is a legal disclaimer that offers to verify that the age of the actors is over the age of 18, there is nothing illegal about doing it.

Ask yourselves, why would someone want to depict folks younger than 18 in sexual acts. Probably several reasons. In our society, we value youth. It's attractive to people. Also, watching this kind of thing is considered "taboo", so even if it IS false, it creates a sense of excitement, rebelliousness, and danger, all things that can heighten ones senses and make the depiction more enjoyable. Lastly, it DOES cater to pedophiles. Now, do all pedophiles act on their desires? No. However, one who actually can be clinically/legally identified as a pedophile would be more succeptable to acting on these feelings when viewing even the false depiction of child porn. It's like putting a case of beer in front of an alcoholic and telling him he cannot drink it.. Will he drink? Maybe, maybe not, but there is more of a chance that HE will than someone who is NOT an alcoholic in the same situation. This is both the danger and the allure of depicting women who look young.

Possessing child porn ought not to be a crime, partly for the reason that it is often not possible for the porn consumer to know whether or not it is child porn for sure anyway, regardless of what their source claims. There are sites that say it is child porn when it is not, and there are sites where they say barely legal when they’re not quite legal. There are also mislabeled files in bootleg porn. Producing child porn (note that a 16-year-old is not necessarily a child, mentally or biologically), on the other hand, should be the real crime.

digsbe said:

I think what happened is technically legal because by the law it's not child porn. However I think they should make it illegal to make pornography using adults that look young like children, it just breeds child molesters and should be a discouraged fetish in society. Technically there were no laws broken so no one should go to jail. Another thing I think that should be illegal is anime porn (or whatever it's called) where they have animated children in it.

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You can't successfully discourage fetishes via laws. Some people find things appealing partly because they are taboo.

samsmart said:

The guy isn't guilty of anything - it's not child porn because the actress isn't a child. There was prosecutorial misconduct - they didn't even bother to verify whether or not the actress is or isn't of legal age. I'm not saying that prosecutors should be forced to prove that someone isn't of legal age - that would put too much of a burden on them. However, they should at least be forced to take steps to see whether or not the age of the actress in a video can be verified.
And saying that someone shouldn't make porn with women who look younger than they really are is as silly as saying that it's okay for teenagers who look older than they really are to make porn.

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Yes, actually they should be forced to prove the person isn't of legal age because you need to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the person is guilty of a crime before you lock them up for 20 years. Can't prove it? Too damned bad. You don't get to ruin somebody's life today who may be innocent of an already ridiculous law.

1069 said:

I'm familiar with Mann; she's an photographic artist, similar to Nan Goldin.
I consider some of this type of art- such as Goldin's Edda and Klara Belly Dancing- to be in very poor taste.
Nevertheless, it's art, not porn.

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Isn't that distinction subjective?

Gray_Fox_86 said:

This is something I agree with big time. I am 23 and still I am pretty young in that i believe it would be ok for me to have a relationship with a consenting 16yr old girl. Is that wrong? Its not just me i'd be ok for other guys and women to do that as well. However, if i am a 30 yr old and i am chasing 16yr olds or even 18yrs i think something would be wrong with me.

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What if you were a really immature 30 year old, and she was a really mature 16-year old? :lol:

Actually I am being serious. Age-based laws are not necessary at all because we can treat younger alleged victims just like we would an 18-year-old or a 68-year-old who is severely mentally handicapped. Have a psychiatrist prove that they were not mentally competent to consent, regardless of age. Sure we can have probable cause to suspect that abuse took place if the alleged victim was 13, just like we may have probable cause if the person was a widow with Alzheimer's, but since there is at least one 13-year-old in the world who is mature enough to have sex, the age in itself should not prove beyond a reasonable doubt that somebody was being abused against their consent.

LiveUninhibited said:

What if you were a really immature 30 year old, and she was a really mature 16-year old? :lol:

Actually I am being serious. Age-based laws are not necessary at all because we can treat younger alleged victims just like we would an 18-year-old or a 68-year-old who is severely mentally handicapped. Have a psychiatrist prove that they were not mentally competent to consent, regardless of age. Sure we can have probable cause to suspect that abuse took place if the alleged victim was 13, just like we may have probable cause if the person was a widow with Alzheimer's, but since there is at least one 13-year-old in the world who is mature enough to have sex, the age in itself should not prove beyond a reasonable doubt that somebody was being abused against their consent.

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A lot of 30 year olds do good with hot 18yr olds. So they don't really need to be dating 16yr olds. But if they want to and the other is consenting then ok. But a mature individual looks for someone near their age range, because they would understand that a large age gap is not feasible in a relationship that is meant to last.
Have you heard of the Russian oligarch? There is this Russian oligarch who dates the best 15 or 16 yr old girls in Russia. He attends elite model castings in Moscow and when he sees a girl he has a person approach them. And if they say yes they start a relationship, he typically ends the relationship by the time they are 18 or 19.
I find it disgusting but then again I'd like to be doing those type of things, so long as I don't break my own code of living. Which means that I would never be able to do it.

Ikari said:

Child porn is child porn only if the porn depicts an actual child is engaged in sexual acts.

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I think that must be the case.
I mean, it's not against the law to be in possession of photos of naked children; most family albums contain at least a few such images.
And it's really difficult to prove sexual intent, since none of us are mind-readers.
I'm not sure the law is entirely consistent from one state to another or even one case to another, but I think in general images of nude children are not legally considered "pornography", while images of children engaged in sexual acts are.

I wish it was that simple. There need not be a sex act being performed for it to be considered child porn. If the prosecutor gets a wild hair up his ass that he thinks the little girl playing in the kiddie pool's legs are spread just a hair too far apart when the photo was taken, BAM!! Child porn.

Child porn is one of the crimes that isn't cut and dry like molestation. It's really hard to say you "accidentally" molested a child but it is quite common for people to discover child porn on their computers that they didn't put there. Since you CAN accidentally download it, the sentencing should be commensurate. Unfortunately, people are getting mandatory 5 years in the feds with 10, 15 and even 20 year sentences becoming more and more common for simple possession.

Like lots of others have said, the guy did nothing wrong, because the actress was over 18. It's only child porn if an actual child is involved.

Gray_Fox_86 said:

This is something I agree with big time. I am 23 and still I am pretty young in that i believe it would be ok for me to have a relationship with a consenting 16yr old girl. Is that wrong? Its not just me i'd be ok for other guys and women to do that as well. However, if i am a 30 yr old and i am chasing 16yr olds or even 18yrs i think something would be wrong with me.

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I have just learned something. You are 23, but because of your screen name, I always thought you were a granny. Goes to show you that, things are not always as they appear to be, and assumptions usually turn out wrong. Oh yea, I also better stop flirting with OK Granny. I might end up getting arrested as a child molester. LOL.