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Financial Reform Talks Near Collapse, Some GOPers Threaten To Defect

You're dealing with a statist Keynesian hack here, conservative. There is no possibility for a rational debate with an elitist leftist posing as a libertarian...

Probably, that is why I went back and edited the post to put in the links so he can find for himself actual numbers. Doubt it will make a difference because people like him don't understand or want to understand human behavior and how behavior destroys theory.

It does seem that far too many prefer one taxpayer paying $1000 in taxes to 2 taxpayers paying $500 each. Although the initial tax revenue is the same the end result is different. There is a multiplier effect of those tax cuts since you now have two taxpayers buying goods and services vs. one, basics of good management
 
Probably, that is why I went back and edited the post to put in the links so he can find for himself actual numbers. Doubt it will make a difference because people like him don't understand or want to understand human behavior and how behavior destroys theory.

It does seem that far too many prefer one taxpayer paying $1000 in taxes to 2 taxpayers paying $500 each. Although the initial tax revenue is the same the end result is different. There is a multiplier effect of those tax cuts since you now have two taxpayers buying goods and services vs. one, basics of good management

Lower taxes means less government involvement in the economy, which his type finds objectionable; the government must allocate funds because the average Americans is too stupid to know what's good for them; he's an elitist who never got the memo: Central management sucks.
 
Lower taxes means less government involvement in the economy, which his type finds objectionable; the government must allocate funds because the average Americans is too stupid to know what's good for them; he's an elitist who never got the memo: Central management sucks.

The real battle right now is between those that support small govt. against those that support big govt. Notice that no one will truly respond to their vision of the govt. and its role.

I believe we need a smaller central govt. and a part time legislature like many states have. The govt's role is to protect this country from foreign and domestic enemies and to promote individual wealth creation. It is through individual wealth creation that people prosper and need less govt.
 
What you and economists ignore are actual results created by consumer behavior. Could it be that arrogant liberal economists don't believe they should get actual data before spouting their rhetoric and theory?

Liberal ignorant? I call that nothing short of partisan hackery. Because you are unable to defend your position with any sort of accuracy, you resort to attacking the authors of published economic works. Great strategy! :thumbs:

Here are the facts. Notice there is a difference between a tax cut and a tax rate cut. The tax cuts that Obama gave us was NOT a rate cut thus was actually paid back as withholding tables weren't changed and people paid less tax than they owed in many cases. The Bush tax RATE cut went into effect in July 2003. Notice GDP and Unemployment rates AFTER those tax cuts. GDP grew from 10.6 trillion to over 14 trillion dollars during the Bush term and prior to the recession that was caused by poor Congressional oversight Unemployment dropped from 6.0 percent to 4.4% so don't give me liberal economist theory, deal in facts.

GDP

2001 10286
2002 10642
2003 11142
2004 11867
2005 12638
2006 13398
2007 14077
2008 14441

U.S. Department of Commerce. Bureau of Economic Analysis

And you still have yet to wrap your mind around the fact that correlation does not equal causation. Just because the tax cuts happened before a recovery does not mean tax cuts caused the recovery. To make such a statement, you will need to take a more sophisticated approach and chain weight the time series, and then differentiate specific categories and their respective growth rates against the averaged bands of previous recessions.


Unemployment Rate

2001 4.2
2002 6.0
2003 5.7
2004 5.4
2005 4.9
2006 4.4
2007 5.0

Notice: Data not available: U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics

Again, you cannot link a causative effect because there is none.

What is embarrassing is a so called expert that ignores the power of the American consumer and entreprenuers. What you and economists ignore is behavior and always will because all aren't the elitist that these economists think they are.

And what you are doing is ignoring American consumption patterns while holding the role of the entrepreneur constant. US spending did in fact grow following tax cuts, as did imports:rofl Is there an income effect as the result of a higher propensity to consume foreign goods? Most likely, but to what effect and how much of that carries over to domestic goods? All legitimate questions that have to be answered before you can make such broad and bold exclamations.

Here are the tax revenue during that period of time as well so your so called facts are lies. Any tax rate cut that grows revenue has nothing to do with deficits. Only those that fear the American people spending their own money and becoming less dependent on the govt. should be concerned and usually are. What is Krugman's vision of America and the role of Govt?

2003 2163.7
2004 2002.1
2005 2047.9
2006 2213.2
2007 2546.8
2008 2807.4

U.S. Department of Commerce. Bureau of Economic Analysis

Must we repeat this exercise? You have yet to show any bit of cause. Yet something does not match:

Current receipts
2003: 3,043.4
2004: 3,265.7
2005: 3,659.3
2006: 3,995.2
2007: 4,209.2
2008: 4,057.6
2009: 3,745.5
source

Your "source" gives the years of 2009 and 2010. So i reserve serious doubts about your integrity or accuracy. Personal taxation receipts do not match either.

Something else that is interesting. In 2000, tax receipts were about 89% of consumption expenditures and transfer payments; in 2003, tax receipts were 66% of consumption expenditures and transfer payments; in 2007 it was up slightly (at the peak of the bubble) to 74% of CE and TP. Which illustrates that the result of tax cuts never lived up to the promise, and massive deficits occurred (DURING PERIODS OF ECONOMIC GROWTH). When the tax receipts face a drop of 2 standard deviations relative to expenditure during growth year differentials (2000 and 2006), your argument falls apart.

What we did witness was economic growth having a positive relationship to increases in public and private debt. Such a policy and type of growth pattern is/was unsustainable.

BEA.gov disagrees with you and captures actual data that destroys economic theory.

And you go and **** up your "correlation equals causation" argument by not reporting the data with any sort of accuracy, and then improperly analyze the data.

That is a lie, the only thing created was a crisis and we all know Obama's feelings about crisis, never let one go to waste. The economic conditions when Reagan took office was much worse than when Obama took office and Obama made it worse. The GDP growth during Obama's first two years was mostly due to growing the size of govt. not growing the private sector and real GDP.

Incorrect, although not shocking. Credit markets, for the first time since the end of the GD ground to almost a halt. Financial institutions with assets managed to the tune of nearly $1 trillion dollars were collapsing and on the brink of collapse. The TED spread was at its highest in recorded history. Between August 2008 and March 2009, nearly $20 trillion of US wealth disappeared (130% of GDP). So face the facts, and take your lame partisan hackery elsewhere.

Do you know the difference between a tax cut and a tax rate cut? Apparently not. Did you pay your taxes this year or do you earn income? Obama gave the American people a tax cut but didn't cut rates therefore withholding wasn't changed thus millions under paid their taxes and had to make up for it on April 15. Thanks Obama for nothing. By the way, tax revenue thanks to obama has been down every quarter since he took office.

Withholdings did in fact change, not in a massive tune, and not for higher income demographics. Tax revenue tends to take a dive when unemployment peaks. Thanks for further exemplifications of your ignorance:2wave:

What the hell does govt. revenue as a percentage of GDP have to do with anything. Percentages are affected by the size of the pot. Real dollars is all that matters. Govt. revenue doubled in the 80's as did GDP. Explain how that happened?

Mostly from inflation and the steady state (population increases). As Krugman elegantly pointed out, the real rate (factor out population increases and inflation) was 19%! Good lord are you dense.

You are right, I can see that BEA.gov, BLS.gov, and the U.S. Treasury sites have no impact on your so called analysis. How dare me use actual numbers which I did above.

LOL, actual numbers that mean nothing in regards to proving causation, and actual numbers that do not represent the reality. Now try again to post both the real numbers:rofl

You have missed your calling, you need to go to work for the NON PARTISAN BEA and tell them they are wrong in reporting economic numbers and revenue. Another correlation does not equal causation defense. Think that is a winner? Think the American people give a damn about your theory? They care about real dollars and giving people more of their money back in EACH paycheck beats a rebate and more govt. spending.

And here is what you miss on a consistant basis. I am not stating their numbers are wrong, or that tax revenue did not increase et al. I am stating that you cannot attribute the tax cuts for causation siting the numbers if and of themselves. Remember, correlation does not equal causation, and until you show any, you will continue to come of as a senile old fart obsessed with the past.

"Your" generation is very poorly schooled on behavior, human activity, and how our economy works. yours is based upon theory that ignores actual facts. My Generation did quite well but did create part of the problem, we gave people like you way too much that you failed to earn thus do not respect. Tax rate cuts did not cause the deficits, irresponsible spending did, the idea that everyone deserves to own a house did, that it is the governments role to provide cradle to grave coverage, and that there are no consequences for personal failure.

Nobody from my generation is a major political player, or had a hand in bringing down the financial system. Im 26 years old. It was you and your lot that ****ed everything up. And now you do not even have the decency to admit it, and attack my generation on the basis of reckless bias.

Tell that to Gorby who disagrees with you in his own book. Of course your economists know better.

Are you serious??? This is your rebuttal? Well, at least you are consistent.

Again debunked above and an example where theory ignores actual results.

Where? You made a comment not backed by any sound facts, nor the quote itself. FAIL!

You are indeed a legend in your OWN mind.

No, i am careful not to post my opinions in discussion such as these.

I will always admit when wrong but theory doesn't do it. Actual results from bea.gov, bls.gov, and the checkbook of the United States refutes your theory. All elite economists are doing is making you look foolish as facts always trump theory.

And must i repeat myself? Show causation or admit your error.

What you have proven is that economist theory and ignorance of actual data makes you look foolish. When you address actual data I will be happy to continue the re-education of someone like you.

You cannot even admit that tax cuts have a deflationary effect. Maybe you should just piss off and enjoy your old age.
 
You're dealing with a statist Keynesian hack here, conservative. There is no possibility for a rational debate with an elitist leftist posing as a libertarian...

Four Ad Homs in two sentences; nothing short of class! :roll: It would be best you make a relevant point regarding the discussion.
 
Lower taxes means less government involvement in the economy, which his type finds objectionable

Can you provide proof where i said less government is objectionable? I have and will admit we need government spending to increase during periods of severe economic contraction; although that does not mean i view government involvent as "all that".... Lame attempt though:lol:


; the government must allocate funds because the average Americans is too stupid to know what's good for them; he's an elitist who never got the memo: Central management sucks.

Again, show me posting such a statement in which i champion "central management".

I am however bothered by one thing: deficits during economic expansion will have to be paid for by diminished private savings. Reagan and Bush 43 followed the Keynesian doctrine half ass; which emphasizes deficits as a means of boosting aggregate demand, yet did not turn off the spickit during periods of growth. And now I have to pay the tax for it.
 
Goldenboy219;1058729693]Liberal ignorant? I call that nothing short of partisan hackery. Because you are unable to defend your position with any sort of accuracy, you resort to attacking the authors of published economic works. Great strategy! :thumbs:

Everything you posted is partisan "hackery" from elite socialists who have a different vision for this country than our Founders. Still waiting for an answer, what is Krugman's view as to the role of this country

And you still have yet to wrap your mind around the fact that correlation does not equal causation. Just because the tax cuts happened before a recovery does not mean tax cuts caused the recovery. To make such a statement, you will need to take a more sophisticated approach and chain weight the time series, and then differentiate specific categories and their respective growth rates against the averaged bands of previous recessions.

What I posted are verifiable facts. Is "correlation does not equal causation" come out of the liberal playbook in an attempt to demonize tax rate cuts for Americans thus keeping people dependent? Whether or not there is a correlation is irrelevant to me because tax rate cuts have happened four times in U.S. History and everytime they increased govt. revenue and strong economic growth. My suggestion is to stop with the theory, stop with the elitist attitude, stop with reporting economic theory and actually get the facts.

Again, you cannot link a causative effect because there is none.

Where does human behavior place in the liberal world? Simple question would you prefer one person paying 1000 in taxes or 2 people paying 500 each? Which would have a bigger impact on the economy?


And what you are doing is ignoring American consumption patterns while holding the role of the entrepreneur constant. US spending did in fact grow following tax cuts, as did imports:rofl Is there an income effect as the result of a higher propensity to consume foreign goods? Most likely, but to what effect and how much of that carries over to domestic goods? All legitimate questions that have to be answered before you can make such broad and bold exclamations.

Why did U.S. Spending grow following tax cuts? Hmmm, let me see, what do you do when you get to keep more of what you "earn." There are four components to GDP, Go to BEA.gov, the link I gave you and find out those components and look at the part imports and exports played in our GDP, hint it was a negative since we have a trade deficit. You are making this way too easy.


Must we repeat this exercise? You have yet to show any bit of cause. Yet something does not match:

Current receipts
2003: 3,043.4
2004: 3,265.7
2005: 3,659.3
2006: 3,995.2
2007: 4,209.2
2008: 4,057.6
2009: 3,745.5
source

Your "source" gives the years of 2009 and 2010. So i reserve serious doubts about your integrity or accuracy. Personal taxation receipts do not match either.

It has become obvious to me that you have spent way too much time listening and reading economic theory that you ignore the basics of economic growth. I posted the Bush years showing economic growth then the affects of the recession which started after the Democrats took control of Congress in 2007. Nice spin and dodge, you tell me how GDP grew over 4 trillion dollars and any time in U.S. history when the GDP grew that much? You are the one that said the Bush tax cuts didn't have any affect on the economy. Something did so why don't you tell me what caused the spike in GDP?

Something else that is interesting. In 2000, tax receipts were about 89% of consumption expenditures and transfer payments; in 2003, tax receipts were 66% of consumption expenditures and transfer payments; in 2007 it was up slightly (at the peak of the bubble) to 74% of CE and TP. Which illustrates that the result of tax cuts never lived up to the promise, and massive deficits occurred (DURING PERIODS OF ECONOMIC GROWTH). When the tax receipts face a drop of 2 standard deviations relative to expenditure during growth year differentials (2000 and 2006), your argument falls apart.

According to NPER we entered a recession in October 2000 and then were hit with 9/11 which of course you ignore. Tax receipts dropped between 2001-2003 which again you ignored. Tax rate cuts took place in July 2003.

What we did witness was economic growth having a positive relationship to increases in public and private debt. Such a policy and type of growth pattern is/was unsustainable.

none of which had anything to do with tax rate cuts that grew govt. revenue.



And you go and **** up your "correlation equals causation" argument by not reporting the data with any sort of accuracy, and then improperly analyze the data.

Not accurate? Complain to the Bureau of Economic Analysis, the Bureau of Labor Statistics, and the U.S. Treasury Dept. That is where the data came from. Maybe Paul Krugman can set them straight.



Incorrect, although not shocking. Credit markets, for the first time since the end of the GD ground to almost a halt. Financial institutions with assets managed to the tune of nearly $1 trillion dollars were collapsing and on the brink of collapse. The TED spread was at its highest in recorded history. Between August 2008 and March 2009, nearly $20 trillion of US wealth disappeared (130% of GDP). So face the facts, and take your lame partisan hackery elsewhere.

You are truly a legend in your own mind. Why did that weath disappear? What did tax rate cuts have to do with that? What created the collapse is the belief that it is a right for everyone to own a home, one that they cannot afford. There are never any consequences for failure in the liberal world.

Still waiting for you to actually explain how GDP grew after the JFK, Reagan, and Bush tax cuts as did Govt. revenue?


Withholdings did in fact change, not in a massive tune, and not for higher income demographics. Tax revenue tends to take a dive when unemployment peaks. Thanks for further exemplifications of your ignorance:2wave:

LOL, thanks for the good laugh.

Here is a good analysis of the Obama "tax cuts"

Obama's 95% Illusion - WSJ.com

Imagine that, unemployment affects tax revenue. Who would have thought it? I guess on the opposite side increased employment woud create more taxpayers? Hmmm, Reagan created almost 20 million with his tax cuts. Bush tax cuts increased employment as well. how did the Obama tax cuts do?


Mostly from inflation and the steady state (population increases). As Krugman elegantly pointed out, the real rate (factor out population increases and inflation) was 19%! Good lord are you dense.

Yeah, I am dense, dense enough to have no interest in anything a socialist economist or another elite liberal has to say. What inflation was there during the Bush Administration? What inflation was there during the Reagan years?

The dense one is anyone who believes what an elite economists has to say yet ignores human behavior and the affects the consumer has on the economy.



LOL, actual numbers that mean nothing in regards to proving causation, and actual numbers that do not represent the reality. Now try again to post both the real numbers:rofl

You are absolutely right, actual numbers mean nothing to an elitist who makes up the theory as they go along, thanks so much for the education:rofl


And here is what you miss on a consistant basis. I am not stating their numbers are wrong, or that tax revenue did not increase et al. I am stating that you cannot attribute the tax cuts for causation siting the numbers if and of themselves. Remember, correlation does not equal causation, and until you show any, you will continue to come of as a senile old fart obsessed with the past.

Then tell me what you do and 150 million others in this country do when they get to keep more of their money? Explain to me how GDP Grew, Govt revenue grew, job creation grew AFTER tax rate cuts?


Nobody from my generation is a major political player, or had a hand in bringing down the financial system. Im 26 years old. It was you and your lot that ****ed everything up. And now you do not even have the decency to admit it, and attack my generation on the basis of reckless bias.

Great, you are 26 years old and have it all figured out. Your book smart, street stupid mentality will lead you to the disaster that is liberalism. Get out into the real world. I am 63, ran a 200 million dollar business than employed 2000 people. You could do better by listening to the more experienced, people that actually generated economic results vs. those economists that haven't contributed a damn thing except hot air. Adopting their theory will keep you dependent on the govt. for a long time.

Are you serious??? This is your rebuttal? Well, at least you are consistent.

LOL, if you are 26 you were 3-4 years old when the fall of the Soviet Union occurred. Now I understand that there are history books but not sure what is in them because Gorbachev was the head of the Soviet Union. You may have missed that point so I suggest you call him or write him and tell him how wrong he was to admit that Reagan destroyed the Soviet Union.

Where? You made a comment not backed by any sound facts, nor the quote itself. FAIL!

You are right, I forgot, data from bea.gov, bls.gov, and the U.S Treasury are trumped by elite economists like Krugman. Man, you need to choose your mentors better.



No, i am careful not to post my opinions in discussion such as these.


You have no problem posting opinions of others and lead us to believe you support those opinions.


And must i repeat myself? Show causation or admit your error.

why don't you and misterman get a room?



You cannot even admit that tax cuts have a deflationary effect. Maybe you should just piss off and enjoy your old age.

I am enjoying the many years of hard work and individual wealth creation. I appreciate you now paying for my SS. After contributing for 35 years and paying for someone else's I am extremely grateful for your contributions now.

Paul Krugman is laughing is arse off at people like you. He is getting rich off people like you but you aren't smart enough to recognize the hogwash he is giving you.
 
Everything you posted is partisan "hackery" from elite socialists who have a different vision for this country than our Founders. Still waiting for an answer, what is Krugman's view as to the role of this country

What I posted are verifiable facts. Is "correlation does not equal causation" come out of the liberal playbook in an attempt to demonize tax rate cuts for Americans thus keeping people dependent? Whether or not there is a correlation is irrelevant to me because tax rate cuts have happened four times in U.S. History and everytime they increased govt. revenue and strong economic growth. My suggestion is to stop with the theory, stop with the elitist attitude, stop with reporting economic theory and actually get the facts.

Where does human behavior place in the liberal world? Simple question would you prefer one person paying 1000 in taxes or 2 people paying 500 each? Which would have a bigger impact on the economy?

Why did U.S. Spending grow following tax cuts? Hmmm, let me see, what do you do when you get to keep more of what you "earn." There are four components to GDP, Go to BEA.gov, the link I gave you and find out those components and look at the part imports and exports played in our GDP, hint it was a negative since we have a trade deficit. You are making this way too easy.

It has become obvious to me that you have spent way too much time listening and reading economic theory that you ignore the basics of economic growth. I posted the Bush years showing economic growth then the affects of the recession which started after the Democrats took control of Congress in 2007. Nice spin and dodge, you tell me how GDP grew over 4 trillion dollars and any time in U.S. history when the GDP grew that much? You are the one that said the Bush tax cuts didn't have any affect on the economy. Something did so why don't you tell me what caused the spike in GDP?

According to NPER we entered a recession in October 2000 and then were hit with 9/11 which of course you ignore. Tax receipts dropped between 2001-2003 which again you ignored. Tax rate cuts took place in July 2003.

none of which had anything to do with tax rate cuts that grew govt. revenue.

Not accurate? Complain to the Bureau of Economic Analysis, the Bureau of Labor Statistics, and the U.S. Treasury Dept. That is where the data came from. Maybe Paul Krugman can set them straight.

You are truly a legend in your own mind. Why did that weath disappear? What did tax rate cuts have to do with that? What created the collapse is the belief that it is a right for everyone to own a home, one that they cannot afford. There are never any consequences for failure in the liberal world.

Still waiting for you to actually explain how GDP grew after the JFK, Reagan, and Bush tax cuts as did Govt. revenue?

LOL, thanks for the good laugh.

Here is a good analysis of the Obama "tax cuts"

Obama's 95% Illusion - WSJ.com

Imagine that, unemployment affects tax revenue. Who would have thought it? I guess on the opposite side increased employment woud create more taxpayers? Hmmm, Reagan created almost 20 million with his tax cuts. Bush tax cuts increased employment as well. how did the Obama tax cuts do?

Yeah, I am dense, dense enough to have no interest in anything a socialist economist or another elite liberal has to say. What inflation was there during the Bush Administration? What inflation was there during the Reagan years?

The dense one is anyone who believes what an elite economists has to say yet ignores human behavior and the affects the consumer has on the economy.

You are absolutely right, actual numbers mean nothing to an elitist who makes up the theory as they go along, thanks so much for the education:rofl

Then tell me what you do and 150 million others in this country do when they get to keep more of their money? Explain to me how GDP Grew, Govt revenue grew, job creation grew AFTER tax rate cuts?

Great, you are 26 years old and have it all figured out. Your book smart, street stupid mentality will lead you to the disaster that is liberalism. Get out into the real world. I am 63, ran a 200 million dollar business than employed 2000 people. You could do better by listening to the more experienced, people that actually generated economic results vs. those economists that haven't contributed a damn thing except hot air. Adopting their theory will keep you dependent on the govt. for a long time.

LOL, if you are 26 you were 3-4 years old when the fall of the Soviet Union occurred. Now I understand that there are history books but not sure what is in them because Gorbachev was the head of the Soviet Union. You may have missed that point so I suggest you call him or write him and tell him how wrong he was to admit that Reagan destroyed the Soviet Union.

You are right, I forgot, data from bea.gov, bls.gov, and the U.S Treasury are trumped by elite economists like Krugman. Man, you need to choose your mentors better.

You have no problem posting opinions of others and lead us to believe you support those opinions.

why don't you and misterman get a room?

I am enjoying the many years of hard work and individual wealth creation. I appreciate you now paying for my SS. After contributing for 35 years and paying for someone else's I am extremely grateful for your contributions now.

Paul Krugman is laughing is arse off at people like you. He is getting rich off people like you but you aren't smart enough to recognize the hogwash he is giving you.

You mixed up the numbers for tax receipts, gave the incorrect link for the data provided, ignore causation by making empty statements and misinterpretation of data sets, and ignore how the economy reacts when short term rates approach the zero bound.

Last time we had this discussion, you stated you ran a $100 million company, now its $200 million?

The truth is ever so clear; you are a senile old man who is obsessed with a period of time when the extreme right allowed massive deficits to be financed by Japan, China, and western Europe. Time to wake up and smell reality; before its too late.
 
You mixed up the numbers for tax receipts, gave the incorrect link for the data provided, ignore causation by making empty statements and misinterpretation of data sets, and ignore how the economy reacts when short term rates approach the zero bound.

Last time we had this discussion, you stated you ran a $100 million company, now its $200 million?

The truth is ever so clear; you are a senile old man who is obsessed with a period of time when the extreme right allowed massive deficits to be financed by Japan, China, and western Europe. Time to wake up and smell reality; before its too late.

No, I posted the right link and posted actual income and corporate tax revenue, not total revenue since it was income taxes that were cut.

It was a 200 million dollar company and I have never stated 100 million nor do I have to prove anything to you.

Thank you for the compliment, self made and senile. brilliant assessment on the part of another typical liberal kid who has a distorted view of the world, probably still living off the parents.

Massive deficits were due and continue to be do to the entitlement mentality in this country. It has nothing whatsoever to do with tax rate cuts that you still want to demonize.

It seems that the entitlement mentality is what you have and it is obvious to me that you need the govt. to help you. That means the taxpayer helps you. Thanks again for the SS contributions.

Obviously you have no interest in real data so keep posting theory. Hope the next time mommy goes to the grocery store she tries to pay for those groceries with theory or percentages.

You have a full life ahead of you and if this is the attitude you have and an example of the people you believe then you are in for real disappointment.

I had a lot of employees like you, many I turned around and others ended up total failures. My bet is you will be in that latter class if you don't change your attitude.
 
I suppose every business in the country is like that? All of them are losing money?

Course not. It's just that some people tend to ignore that businesses aren't making money because of the recession, therefore cutting their taxes is rather futile.

sole proprietorships account for the majority of businesses in the US

Perhaps you missed this:

"If I cut taxes on someone who has a small business being reported on their schedule C who's losing money to the point they have no taxable income (this happens more often then you'd think), how does that help them?"

You do know what a schedule C is no?

So, while it may not help businesses that are operating at a loss, tax cuts for businesses who have tight margins are extremely beneficial to them.

True, but again, people tend to ignore that businesses with operating losses do not benefit from reductions in their tax rates.

We should also cut the corporate tax rates, so they can retain more jobs during recessions.

Not far enough. We should eliminate the corporate tax rate because corporations in essence don't pay taxes.

But, of course, tax cuts don't work because individual people are just too damn stupid and helpless to spend their money efficiently and properly. No, we need big government to allocate resources and money...

Your banter is pedestrian at best.
 
You people do know it's a waste of time to talk to Conservative no?

He does not understand economics. He does not understand that raw data that is the result of a myriad of factors does not equate to proving only one factor is the cause.

He does not understand what linear regression is, nor how it actually proves how one factor was the cause.

Conservative wants tax cuts to be the cause and he will ignore everything else, including good statistics.

Conservative's argument is little more then a bomb burned the house down, not lightning, arson, a gas leak, bad wiring or a my raid of other possibilities because he wants it to be a bomb. He will never ever prove his argument, only berate you and ignore your arguments.
 
Concerning this financial reform, I thought this article was interesting by Dana Perino:

Republicans Aren't Caving On Finanical Reform, They're Leading

"...Far from coming up short, the GOP got six key concessions from the Democrats:

- Taxpayers must be protected, not exposed

- Bailout fund must be removed.

- Failing firms must be allowed to fail - shareholders must be wiped out.

-Creditors of failing firms must pay - anything that exceeds bankruptcy must be recouped.

-Congress must have an upfront say in any guarantee program.

-Emergency programs can only be used in real emergencies and only by healthy (solvent) firms.

Now Senate Republicans will focus on taking out misguided provisions that go beyond Wall Street to interfere with small businesses, community banks, and employers throughout the country that had nothing to do with the financial crisis. That's not caving -- that's legislating."

FOXNews.com - DANA PERINO: Republicans Aren't Caving On Finanical Reform, They're Leading
 
Too bad the GOP program is little more then a horse and pony show.

It does nothing to prevent future bailouts and it does seem to suggest that the cost of capital will increase placing a significant burden upon business expansion.
 
Here are the tax revenue during that period of time as well so your so called facts are lies. Any tax rate cut that grows revenue has nothing to do with deficits. Only those that fear the American people spending their own money and becoming less dependent on the govt. should be concerned and usually are. What is Krugman's vision of America and the role of Govt?

2003 2163.7
2004 2002.1
2005 2047.9
2006 2213.2
2007 2546.8
2008 2807.4

U.S. Department of Commerce. Bureau of Economic Analysis

Dude, you cannot even post the numbers with accuracy, as the dates and the numbers do not match. Not only that, take a peek at your time series; it states 2009 & 2010, not 2003-2008.

Actual numbers you wanted to post:

2003: 2,047.9
2004: 2,213.2
2005: 2,546.8
2006: 2,807.4
2007: 2,960.6
2008: 2,758.0
2009: 2,428.2

Also, here is the correct link to the data set: source

Yet i will use your ridiculus argument against you: Due to the Clinton tax increases, the US experienced great GDP growth and it increased government revenue. The data @ bea.gov cannot be denied, as it reads....

Tax Reciepts:

1992: 1,239.7
1993: 1,317.8
1994: 1,425.6
1995: 1,516.7
1996: 1,641.5
1997: 1,780.0
1998: 1,910.8
1999: 2,035.8
2000: 2,202.8

Which is undeniable proof (according to the "Conservative" scientific approach) that Clinton's tax policy raised government revenues. Don't worry, i didn't make a major mistake in posting the numbers. Everything aligns as it should.

Oh guess what? My source represents the actual data set presented:roll:
 
Dude, you cannot even post the numbers with accuracy, as the dates and the numbers do not match. Not only that, take a peek at your time series; it states 2009 & 2010, not 2003-2008.

Actual numbers you wanted to post:

2003: 2,047.9
2004: 2,213.2
2005: 2,546.8
2006: 2,807.4
2007: 2,960.6
2008: 2,758.0
2009: 2,428.2

Also, here is the correct link to the data set: source

Yet i will use your ridiculus argument against you: Due to the Clinton tax increases, the US experienced great GDP growth and it increased government revenue. The data @ bea.gov cannot be denied, as it reads....

Tax Reciepts:

1992: 1,239.7
1993: 1,317.8
1994: 1,425.6
1995: 1,516.7
1996: 1,641.5
1997: 1,780.0
1998: 1,910.8
1999: 2,035.8
2000: 2,202.8

Which is undeniable proof (according to the "Conservative" scientific approach) that Clinton's tax policy raised government revenues. Don't worry, i didn't make a major mistake in posting the numbers. Everything aligns as it should.

Oh guess what? My source represents the actual data set presented:roll:


First of the topic isn't Bill Clinton, the topic is the benefits of the tax cuts. If you want to talk about Clinton I will be happy to join in that discussion as well. What happened in 1994 after the Clinton tax increases? Right, the GOP Took over Congress and repealed many of those increases thus stimulating the economy. You did forget who controlled the Congress, right? Do you understand how spending occurs, who authorizes it?

Your so called indeniable truth is just like the rest of your posts, elitist, arrogant, and totally void of logic and common sense. Tax revenue increased AFTER tax rate cuts as did GDP and job growth. Explain why?

Again, you do what most young ideologues do, divert from anything that refutes your personal opinions or those elite economist posts who for some reason you buy.

What is Krugman's vision as to the role of the Govt?

Why did GDP and tax revenue double AFTER the Reagan Tax cuts and grow after the Bush tax rate cuts?

What do you do when you get to keep more of your money?
 
You can repeat the same set of sentences until you are blue in the face, it does not make you correct. Show any type of statistical or econometric causality, or admit your error.

I am curious as to why you have yet to respond to your inability to post data with the corresponding dates, and then expect us to take your opinion with anything but a grain of salt. If a person is having issues organizing the data, i have little faith in their ability to analyze it with any relevance.
 
You can repeat the same set of sentences until you are blue in the face, it does not make you correct. Show any type of statistical or econometric causality, or admit your error.

I am curious as to why you have yet to respond to your inability to post data with the corresponding dates, and then expect us to take your opinion with anything but a grain of salt. If a person is having issues organizing the data, i have little faith in their ability to analyze it with any relevance.

I gave you the link which shows that tax revenue grew AFTER the rate cuts and it is the links that provide the data. I am still waiting for an explanation as to how that happened? You want to blame the deficits on tax rate cuts yet govt. revenue grew. How can deficits be caused by an increase in tax revenue?
 
We have already talked about inflation and the steady state. Now, it is your turn to clarify why i should take your simpleton analysis as anything other than partisan hackery. Given you could not even organize the data correctly, i doubt you have the ability to make sound judgment.

Is this the type of sound organizational skill demanded from executives of $200 million companies? :lamo
 
We have already talked about inflation and the steady state. Now, it is your turn to clarify why i should take your simpleton analysis as anything other than partisan hackery. Given you could not even organize the data correctly, i doubt you have the ability to make sound judgment.

Is this the type of sound organizational skill demanded from executives of $200 million companies? :lamo

What inflation? If there was inflation the interest rates would have been much higher during that period of time.

From what I see of you, you never will have the opportunity to run any business as you don't understand human behavior, have any logic or common sense, and buy what you are told by ideologues.

Don't you have classes today?
 
Still unwilling to admit you lack basic organizational skills? This is the first step in any sort of data analysis.

BTW, inflation was an issue in the early '80's.
 
Still unwilling to admit you lack basic organizational skills? This is the first step in any sort of data analysis.

BTW, inflation was an issue in the early '80's.

Like a typical liberal you are more interested in having your ego fueled than admitting that the link showed revenue growing after the tax cuts, GDP growing after the tax cuts, and jobs being created after the tax cuts along with low or zero inflation.

Yes, Inflation was a problem in the early 80's. The Reagan tax cuts were signed in the fall of 1981 and went into effect in 1982. What happened to inflation after those tax cuts went into effect?
 
To find real growth, here is what you do:

1.) locate 1990 chain weight gdp deflator; then write it down.

2.) locate 1980 chain weight gdp deflator; then write it down.

3.) divide the 1990 deflator by the 1980 deflator to get the price ratio.

4.) multiply the 1980 nominal gdp by the price ratio aquired from #3.

What you should come out with is the GDP in 1980 in 1990 dollar terms. Then, divide the chain weighted gdp by the 1990 nominal gdp, and subtract your answer from 1. This will give us the non inflationary GDP growth from the period of 1980 to 1990.

Then post the result:2wave:
 
To find real growth, here is what you do:

1.) locate 1990 chain weight gdp deflator; then write it down.

2.) locate 1980 chain weight gdp deflator; then write it down.

3.) divide the 1990 deflator by the 1980 deflator to get the price ratio.

4.) multiply the 1980 nominal gdp by the price ratio aquired from #3.

What you should come out with is the GDP in 1980 in 1990 dollar terms. Then, divide the chain weighted gdp by the 1990 nominal gdp, and subtract your answer from 1. This will give us the non inflationary GDP growth from the period of 1980 to 1990.

Then post the result:2wave:

Oh, Good Lord, do you think the American people and consumer give a damn about chain weight gdp deflator or your book smart rhetoric? I know I couldn't care less because we didn't live during the 80's with 90's value of the dollar. your opinions and the use of a GDP deflator are purely subjective and serve little purpose as they do not recognize conditions at the time but instead try to put past economic procedures into the present day numbers. People living and working during the 80's, which you weren't one, benefited greatly from the Reagan tax rate cuts and spent their money, saved, their money, paid down debt, or invested it, all helped the economy and helped themselves become less dependent on the govt. All that activity created almost 20 million new jobs and thus new taxpayers which offset any tax reduction. people with more income need less of that so called govt. help.

You simply are just too naive for real world logic, common sense, and personal behavior. Get your nose out of the books and deal with real people and real personal finance issues. Generate some value for the country for a change.
 
It is intellectually dishonest for you to label or accuse me of anything negative in regards to my character or success, given the history of my statements in this thread. When i say you are expressing ignorance, senile tendencies or even question your ability, it is because you commonly mis-organize data, claim opinion as fact, or totally disregard important points pertaining to the subject matter. Providing raw data, and completely taking it out of context to fit some sort of political fantasia is not the work of an honest debater. Because you attack me and my sources while totally disregarding my argument, i have no desire to continue in this discussion.

For the record, inflation based growth is not real, and does not improve the standard of living within any country it accompanies. Inflation is a necessary evil we are forced to live with if we as a country aspire any economic growth, but only to a point. Too much or too little can diminish real growth, and therefore we must take into consideration the difference between nominal and real growth. Failure to do so instantaneously reduces your argument to jack ****. Now be a man and admit your error; after all it is the decent thing to do.
 
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