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Thread: Media Exaggerate Tea Party's Sway

  1. #141
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    Re: Media Exaggerate Tea Party's Sway

    If the poll is accurate, then it appears that the folks who built this country and keep it afloat with their hard work, everyday, are the same folks who make up the Tea Party.

    Seeing how that voting block makes up 80%+ of the country, one should think twice before pissing all of them off...if one wants to get re-elected, of course.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Media Exaggerate Tea Party's Sway

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    Is this some leftwing "libertarian-(insert left wing ideology bunk)" nonsense?
    Libertarianism isn't "left" or "right." It's just libertarian.

    If you are actually a libertarian, you know that currently existing corporate capitalism is not based in free markets. It's based in state-regulated markets. That's why I'm wary of the "libertarian" defense of corporatism and its wealth and property distributions. I've been reading a book called Radicals for Capitalism, and its author elaborated a bit on ultra-libertarian Murray Rothbard's thoughts on the "primitive accumulation" issue.

    Rothbard here presented the fullest explanation of the ethical philosoph behind his property-based anarcho-capitalism - and lets some of his truest radicalism shine through. For example, he says that a libertarian mustn't stand for merely protecting any existing distribution of property; rather, he is interested in defending justly held property. When we can authoritatively say that a current property holding is not based in an unbroken line of just possession, and can find a victim or an heir of the victim from whom the property was taken, then that victim or heir must take possession.
    Rothbard isn't exactly a "leftwing libertarian"; he's an anarcho-capitalist. Most libertarians are minarchists (as am I, incidentally), but they don't tend to disparage the libertarian credentials of hard-core anarchists who want the state replaced by competing private firms. I know I don't. I just think there would be feasibility issues.

    But aside from that, you can see the implications of that view. I tend to think that Amerindian poverty is probably related to their forcible/fraudulent dispossession, slaughter, and confinement to reservations, for example. If wealthy property owners were taxed and portions of their assets transferred to Native Americans, how would that be "theft"? Their gains were made through the losses of others in times past in violation of the non-aggression principle!

  3. #143
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    Re: Media Exaggerate Tea Party's Sway

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Media exaggerate Tea Party's sway, data suggests - Yahoo! News



    Hilarious, but didn't you know this already?
    Just keep pretending the American people are irrelevant, just keep pretending. Please, please, I BEG of you to keep pretending... Really, why wouldn't we want more results like this?


    What's next...Illinois?
    Last edited by DarkWizard12; 04-25-10 at 12:31 AM.

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    Re: Media Exaggerate Tea Party's Sway

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    I find it kind of funny that the Tea Partiers are blaming Obama, who came into office after the crash began. They should be blaming the president whose policies started the whole process that finally culminated in the collapse of our economy - Bill Clinton. Of course, Obama is actually making things much worse, but he and Bush merely stepped into the shoes that Clinton provided. Those who wax fond for Clinton need to reexamine their misplaced adoration. Clinton screwed them, as well as the rest of us.
    Fascinating..... Bush was just an innocent bystander to the 2008 crash... just a clueless buffoon that didn't see all of the faults engineered into the system by his predecessor? Wow? Are you sure you don't want to spread a little blame to Jimmy Carter on this one as well?

    This is intellectually dishonest. The guy was at the helm for eight years (and Clinton 8 years removed). We experienced a full cycle in the interim. I could indulge an argument of how Clinton's policies contributed, but to suggest that Bush had nothing materially to do with it is pretty absurd.

    If you insist on making such an absurd argument, at least give us arguments and facts supporting those arguments. You offer nothing but fantasy island.
    Last edited by upsideguy; 04-25-10 at 02:35 AM.

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    Re: Media Exaggerate Tea Party's Sway

    Quote Originally Posted by Cochise View Post
    Libertarianism isn't "left" or "right." It's just libertarian.

    If you are actually a libertarian, you know that currently existing corporate capitalism is not based in free markets. It's based in state-regulated markets. That's why I'm wary of the "libertarian" defense of corporatism and its wealth and property distributions. I've been reading a book called Radicals for Capitalism, and its author elaborated a bit on ultra-libertarian Murray Rothbard's thoughts on the "primitive accumulation" issue.

    I'm not sure who these libertarian are that support this corporate welfare, or was this some sort of a strawman to sound intellectual?



    Rothbard isn't exactly a "leftwing libertarian"; he's an anarcho-capitalist. Most libertarians are minarchists (as am I, incidentally), but they don't tend to disparage the libertarian credentials of hard-core anarchists who want the state replaced by competing private firms. I know I don't. I just think there would be feasibility issues.

    hypenated-libertarian = idiot trying to onto a political ideology in an attempt to find relevancy.



    But aside from that, you can see the implications of that view. I tend to think that Amerindian poverty is probably related to their forcible/fraudulent dispossession, slaughter, and confinement to reservations, for example. If wealthy property owners were taxed and portions of their assets transferred to Native Americans, how would that be "theft"? Their gains were made through the losses of others in times past in violation of the non-aggression principle!



    Ahh, so as a rich man, I should be taxed money and this money should be given to native americans because of past injustices by other people a long long time ago.....


    with a view like this, you prove my point regarding hyphenated-libertarianism.... this is no libertarianism I have ever heard of. :
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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    Re: Media Exaggerate Tea Party's Sway

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    I'm not sure who these libertarian are that support this corporate welfare, or was this some sort of a strawman to sound intellectual?
    Assertions that progressive taxation is theft or that corporate taxation is a punishment of the productive is an implicit assumption that free markets exist when they do not. State-managed markets exist, and current property distribution has the hand of statism behind it. I don't shed tears when the owners of stolen property are taxed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    hypenated-libertarian = idiot trying to onto a political ideology in an attempt to find relevancy.
    Where exactly have you gotten the idea that what you call "leftwing libertarianism" is something completely different than just plain old "libertarianism"? Why or how did Roderick Long become a left-libertarian? - The Mises Community

    Also, what is in left-libertarianism that isn't already in libertarianism?

    Because whenever I hear a left-libertarian say anything, it's just like "don't apologize for the current market"... but that's not anything different from libertarian philosophy.
    If openly forcible or fraudulent aggression in times past affects current market structure, reparation/redistribution is necessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    Ahh, so as a rich man, I should be taxed money and this money should be given to native americans because of past injustices by other people a long long time ago.....


    It's not about personal complicity; it's about the modern consequences created by the aggression of ancestors. The present distribution of wealth and property has been directly influenced by past aggression, since effectively all existing property was either unjustly acquired at some point or created through some other resource or capital good that was itself unjustly acquired or created by something that was. Rothbard put it this way:

    We at the Lib. Forum have long been advocates of land reform, but not, obviously, because we are socialists or egalitarians, or because we are
    simply pro-peasant or anti-landlord. "Land reform" is a portmenteau
    .concept that covers a lot of sins and virtues, and so is a virtually
    meaningless term. What we favor, here as always, is justice and property
    rights, and we favor the return of stolen property to its rightful owners. In
    many areas of the world, arable land was stolen by conquest and
    government expropriation from the peasants and handed to a favored
    group of "feudal" landlords, and we consider it not only just but essential
    to restore this property to the rightful peasant owners.


    In these cases, the "rent" extracted by the unjust landlords is really a form of tax paid by the peasantry. This of course is not true of all peasants and all landlords, since in many cases the land was justly owned by the landlords and then rented out to the peasantry. How do we know which is which? Obviously, in the same way we know whether any property-a watch, a horse, or whatever-is justly or criminally owned by its current possessor: by
    engaging in a "historical" inquiry into the source of its current title. The
    proper analysis is not "peasant" vs. "landlord" but just vs. criminal
    possession of current property.
    But yea...I'm sure Murray Rothbard isn't a real libertarian...

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    with a view like this, you prove my point regarding hyphenated-libertarianism.... this is no libertarianism I have ever heard of.
    You've never heard of Murray Rothbard? That's probably because you're a standard conservative looking for an exotic label, but far be it from me to judge. Just try to remember that libertarians are not Republicans in Halloween costumes.

  7. #147
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    Re: Media Exaggerate Tea Party's Sway

    Quote Originally Posted by Cochise View Post
    Libertarianism isn't "left" or "right." It's just libertarian.

    If you are actually a libertarian, you know that currently existing corporate capitalism is not based in free markets. It's based in state-regulated markets. That's why I'm wary of the "libertarian" defense of corporatism and its wealth and property distributions. I've been reading a book called Radicals for Capitalism, and its author elaborated a bit on ultra-libertarian Murray Rothbard's thoughts on the "primitive accumulation" issue.



    Rothbard isn't exactly a "leftwing libertarian"; he's an anarcho-capitalist. Most libertarians are minarchists (as am I, incidentally), but they don't tend to disparage the libertarian credentials of hard-core anarchists who want the state replaced by competing private firms. I know I don't. I just think there would be feasibility issues.

    But aside from that, you can see the implications of that view. I tend to think that Amerindian poverty is probably related to their forcible/fraudulent dispossession, slaughter, and confinement to reservations, for example. If wealthy property owners were taxed and portions of their assets transferred to Native Americans, how would that be "theft"? Their gains were made through the losses of others in times past in violation of the non-aggression principle!

    Ah.

    So you support taking property and wealth from people who are "not your kind" and giving it to people who "are your kind", based on things that happened centuries ago, the principles of whom are all long dead.

    No self-intrest involved, I'm sure.

    Where can be found any piece of ground, other than the Arctic and Antarctic, that didn't belong to someone else at some point in history? Probably nowhere. Probably every Amerind tribe that ever claimed a territory, at some point took it away from some other tribe that was living there before them, before any historical record was written.

    If I personally wronged you, then I owe you recompense to make you whole. If my great-granddaddy wronged your great-granddaddy, and they're both dead...well, that pretty much ends the matter.

    Otherwise we might as well throw away all current titles and give everyone forty acres by random lottery, whether it is downtown Denver, a General Motors factory outside Chicago, or a patch of desert in Death Valley Arizona.

    It won't work. If you did that, in twenty years there would be those who owned forty thousand acres, and those who'd lost everything they had. Outcomes are not equal because people aren't.

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    Re: Media Exaggerate Tea Party's Sway

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Ah.

    So you support taking property and wealth from people who are "not your kind" and giving it to people who "are your kind", based on things that happened centuries ago, the principles of whom are all long dead.

    No self-intrest involved, I'm sure.

    Where can be found any piece of ground, other than the Arctic and Antarctic, that didn't belong to someone else at some point in history? Probably nowhere. Probably every Amerind tribe that ever claimed a territory, at some point took it away from some other tribe that was living there before them, before any historical record was written.

    If I personally wronged you, then I owe you recompense to make you whole. If my great-granddaddy wronged your great-granddaddy, and they're both dead...well, that pretty much ends the matter.

    Otherwise we might as well throw away all current titles and give everyone forty acres by random lottery, whether it is downtown Denver, a General Motors factory outside Chicago, or a patch of desert in Death Valley Arizona.

    It won't work. If you did that, in twenty years there would be those who owned forty thousand acres, and those who'd lost everything they had. Outcomes are not equal because people aren't.
    Actually, there isn't self-interest involved. I'm well-off enough and not even on my own rez anyway. I just consider myself an exception to a general rule.

    It's fallacious to believe that personal complicity is a necessary condition of being in possession of stolen property. If Joe steals John's property and passes it down to his grandson Jim, that hardly changes the fact that it rightfully belongs to John's grandson Jones, regardless of the fact that Jim didn't steal anything. That he's in possession of stolen property is the issue.

    This does apply to everyone and everything to some extent. As I said in another thread:

    Firstly, not all indigenous groups were "tribes." There were several regional entities that could reasonably be called "states." Secondly, I already responded that the Navajo and Apache and their common ancestors stole land and resources from Pueblo communities. I said that if this interfered with current private property rights of the Pueblo, they were entitled to reparation. It's simply that it's far more clear-cut that current ownership by the U.S. government interferes with all sorts of indigenous private property rights.
    Now, says Rothbard:

    In Portugal, there is no land problem north of the Tagus River, where no land conquest or expropriations took place, and where the land is consequently marked by private peasant proprietors and there is no cause for land reform. Southeast of the Tagus, however, is a land conquered centuries ago from the Moslems, with the peasants expropriated by State creation of large feudal estates. It is in southern Portugal, then, where land reform is a very live issue
    Every assumption that equality of opportunity exists is an implicit assumption that free markets exist, which we know to be false. State-managed markets exist, and current property distribution is capitalism's inheritance from the feudalist economy. Libertarian principles demand the restoration of private property to those that are entitled to them. What matters is not the personal complicity of present actors, but the ways in which aggressive acquisition in times past affect the conditions and opportunities of people today.

    I want to see a meritocratic free market where people rise and fall based on their abilities and willingness to work hard, not a state-managed and centrally planned economy where the fates of so many are predetermined by government protection of past theft.

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    Re: Media Exaggerate Tea Party's Sway

    Quote Originally Posted by Cochise View Post
    Assertions that progressive taxation is theft or that corporate taxation is a punishment of the productive is an implicit assumption that free markets exist when they do not. State-managed markets exist, and current property distribution has the hand of statism behind it. I don't shed tears when the owners of stolen property are taxed

    Taking my money to give it to someone else for supposed past wrongs is not "libertarianism", sorry.

    Where exactly have you gotten the idea that what you call "leftwing libertarianism" is something completely different than just plain old "libertarianism"? Why or how did Roderick Long become a left-libertarian? - The Mises Community

    From this thing called "reality". taking my money to pay someone else for percieved injustices of others, is not any kind of libertarianism i have heard of.





    If openly forcible or fraudulent aggression in times past affects current market structure, reparation/redistribution is necessary.


    by committing the same fraudulent agression onfolks like me? this is your version of "libertarianism"?









    It's not about personal complicity; it's about the modern consequences created by the aggression of ancestors. The present distribution of wealth and property has been directly influenced by past aggression, since effectively all existing property was either unjustly acquired at some point or created through some other resource or capital good that was itself unjustly acquired or created by something that was. Rothbard put it this way:

    sounds like left wing bull**** to me.






    But yea...I'm sure Murray Rothbard isn't a real libertarian...



    You've never heard of Murray Rothbard? That's probably because you're a standard conservative looking for an exotic label, but far be it from me to judge. Just try to remember that libertarians are not Republicans in Halloween costumes.

    I know him fairly well, I never considered the racist a true libertarian but more a scourge on the liberty movement.




    I'm comfortable in my liberty minded ways.... I don't need to pretend to be one thing, while advocating something as far left and statist as the notion of reparations.....
    Last edited by ReverendHellh0und; 04-25-10 at 05:03 PM.
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  10. #150
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    Re: Media Exaggerate Tea Party's Sway

    also "cochise" from "Chinle, Arizona", 91% native american, navajo reservation, etc... your desire for reparations wouldn't be personal now would it?



    Well whatever it is, it's not "libertarianism".
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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