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Thread: Obama: We're still working on our democracy

  1. #51
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    Re: Obama: We're still working on our democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I disagree with you on all three counts.
    Of course you do.
    -Nothing- about democracy necessitates the inclusion of -any- of those things -- so, no.
    Show that a system of government where decisions are made according to the will of the people must, as part of its nature, include things like due process, protection from unreasonable searches, and protection from cuel and unusual punishment, and that absent same, it is not a democracy.

    Equivocation.
    I stated that The Obama is continuig the Bush-era policies that you deride.
    Your response, summed up, is 'yes, well....'
    That's equivocaton.

    The nature of our democracy, what's wrong with it, what's been done to fix it, and what will be done to fix the rest is very much of substance.
    Please state the -exact- nature of your disagreement with this, as given the importance you supposedly place on democracy and its supposed necessary relationship between it and the things you mentioned, it would very much seem like these things should be important to you.

    Again, get some substance and let's see where that takes us.
    As illustrated, substance is staring you in the face -- and so, its clear that when presented with substance, you just run from it.

  2. #52
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    Re: Obama: We're still working on our democracy

    Without due process, freedom is hindered. If the government can arrest and hold without due process, it has too much power to assure freedom no matter how people vote. If a government can ignore rule of law, then freedom and democracy can be ignored, and hence they become meaningless. You only have the freedom you can defend.

    You're not asking a question based on democracy here, but are instead attacking Obama's comment, playing a silly partisan game. Something that really sought to address democracy would start by discussing freedoms and powers and civil liberties and not attach it to any president. You have brought nothing of substance to the table. Nothing in Obama's comments mean anything that should offend or bother anyone.

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    Re: Obama: We're still working on our democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Without due process, freedom is hindered. If the government can arrest and hold without due process, it has too much power to assure freedom no matter how people vote.
    False premise, that these things are necessary for democracy to exist.

    So long as the people vote for whatever issue at hand, and that said vote is recognized and implemented, there is democracy.

    Due process? Not -necessarily- a part of that.
    Protection from unreasonable search? Not -necessarily- a part of that.
    Protection from unusual punishment? Not -necessarily- part of that.

    Freedom and democracy, see, are not necessarily related.

    You're not asking a question based on democracy here, but are instead attacking Obama's comment, playing a silly partisan game.
    Is that what you call it when someone questions The Obama and His pontifications? How DARE I?

    Something that really sought to address democracy would start by discussing freedoms and powers and civil liberties and not attach it to any president.
    That might be applicable if it were contextually relevant.
    Instead, we're discussing something -The Obama- said about the state of Democracy in the US, the problems -The Obama- sees as connected to same and what -The Obama- has supposedly done fo fix those problems.

    And you will note that the discussion started with -questions- regarding same.

    You have brought nothing of substance to the table.
    I have brought plenty - you're just running from it.

  4. #54
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    Re: Obama: We're still working on our democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    False premise, that these things are necessary for democracy to exist.

    So long as the people vote for whatever issue at hand, and that said vote is recognized and implemented, there is democracy.

    Due process? Not -necessarily- a part of that.
    Protection from unreasonable search? Not -necessarily- a part of that.
    Protection from unusual punishment? Not -necessarily- part of that.

    Freedom and democracy, see, are not necessarily related.
    I quite disagree. If these things can be done, you cannot be assured freedom or democracy. Both, though separate, require sound rule of law to exist. Where the law is not respected, neither can be assured.


    Is that what you call it when someone questions The Obama and His pontifications? How DARE I?
    No, that's what I call anything that lacks substance no matter who it is directed at.



    I have brought plenty - you're just running from it.
    No, you brought silliness in the pretense that it was substance. It isn't. Sorry.

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    Re: Obama: We're still working on our democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I quite disagree.
    You can disagree all you want, but unless you can show a necessary lrelatiuonship between democracy and the things you cite -- that is, how, exactly, democracy cannot exits unless these things are present -- then your disagreement is meaningless. You have not done this -- and, in fact, you cannot becasue said necessary relationship does not exist.

    If these things can be done, you cannot be assured freedom or democracy.
    All that is necessary to 'assure democracy' is, as I already noted, that the people vote for whatever issue at hand, and that said vote is recognized and implemented.

    Freedom? Other than to vote, there's nothing regarding democracy that necessitates any such thing. You can be an absolute slave, and as long as the people vote for whatever issue at hand, and that said vote is recognized and implemented.
    Both, though separate, require sound rule of law to exist. Where the law is not respected, neither can be assured.
    To the extent that the people vote for whatever issue at hand, and that said vote is recognized and implemented. There is no other requirement.

    No, that's what I call anything that lacks substance no matter who it is directed at.
    And, as noted, there's all sorts of substance - you're just running from it.

    No, you brought silliness in the pretense that it was substance. It isn't. Sorry.
    If that's how you plan to continue avoiding the issue, since you really dont have any other respone, then continue to do so -- the fact that you're running away doesnt change.

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    Re: Obama: We're still working on our democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    You can disagree all you want, but unless you can show a necessary lrelatiuonship between democracy and the things you cite -- that is, how, exactly, democracy cannot exits unless these things are present -- then your disagreement is meaningless. You have not done this -- and, in fact, you cannot becasue said necessary relationship does not exist.


    All that is necessary to 'assure democracy' is, as I already noted, that the people vote for whatever issue at hand, and that said vote is recognized and implemented.

    Freedom? Other than to vote, there's nothing regarding democracy that necessitates any such thing. You can be an absolute slave, and as long as the people vote for whatever issue at hand, and that said vote is recognized and implemented.

    To the extent that the people vote for whatever issue at hand, and that said vote is recognized and implemented. There is no other requirement.


    And, as noted, there's all sorts of substance - you're just running from it.


    If that's how you plan to continue avoiding the issue, since you really dont have any other respone, then continue to do so -- the fact that you're running away doesnt change.
    No, voting alone is not effort. In Saddam's Iraq, people vote. They vote in Iran. The vote in Communist Russia as well. Democracy depends on more than voting. It depends on rule of law.

    And no, you have noted no substance concerning Obama's comment. None. There is no issue to avoid, which is my point. It's a simple point that should not require all this back and forth. Obama made a simple statement that should be universally agreed with, as we are always working to improve. There is no substance in your complaint.

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    Re: Obama: We're still working on our democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    No, voting alone is not effort.
    In Saddam's Iraq, people vote. They vote in Iran. The vote in Communist Russia as well. Democracy depends on more than voting.
    You didnt read what I said:

    All that is necessary to 'assure democracy' is, as I already noted, that the people vote for whatever issue at hand, and that said vote is recognized and implemented.

    Implicit in this that the people voting may vote for whatever they want, and as such, none of your examples apply. nor do anything to support your position.

    None of this in any illustrates the -necessity- for democray to include those things you claimed. Other than to vote, there's nothing regarding democracy that necessitates any such thing. You can be an absolute slave, and as long as the people vote for whatever issue at hand, and that said vote is recognized and implemented.
    It depends on rule of law.
    Which, again, does not necessitate any of those things you claimed.
    And no, you have noted no substance concerning Obama's comment.
    Keep running away.

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    Re: Obama: We're still working on our democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    You didnt read what I said:

    All that is necessary to 'assure democracy' is, as I already noted, that the people vote for whatever issue at hand, and that said vote is recognized and implemented.

    Implicit in this that the people voting may vote for whatever they want, and as such, none of your examples apply. nor do anything to support your position.

    None of this in any illustrates the -necessity- for democray to include those things you claimed. Other than to vote, there's nothing regarding democracy that necessitates any such thing. You can be an absolute slave, and as long as the people vote for whatever issue at hand, and that said vote is recognized and implemented.

    Which, again, does not necessitate any of those things you claimed.

    Keep running away.
    But the do apply. If the law can be ignored, then nothing can be assured. You may be OK today, but as the precedence has been set that the law is secondary, then someone else can ignore your vote and do as they please, and democracy is like that of Iran and NK. When laws don't apply, nothing is assured.

    Not running, answering.

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    Re: Obama: We're still working on our democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    But the do apply. If the law can be ignored, then nothing can be assured.
    The only "law" that is -necessary- in a democracy is that there is an actual vote, and that the results of that vote are recgonized and implemented.

    You dont need protection from unreasonable seziures for that.
    You dont need protection from unusual punishement for that.
    You dont need due process for that.

    Not running, answering.
    You don't want to have to address the issue, so you take the sohpomoric tack of simply delcaring the issue unsubstantive.
    That's running.

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    Re: Obama: We're still working on our democracy

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    The only "law" that is -necessary- in a democracy is that there is an actual vote, and that the results of that vote are recgonized and implemented.

    You dont need protection from unreasonable seziures for that.
    You dont need protection from unusual punishement for that.
    You dont need due process for that.


    You don't want to have to address the issue, so you take the sohpomoric tack of simply delcaring the issue unsubstantive.
    That's running.
    You are mistaken. Where rule of law is ignored, there are no assurances, anywhere.

    What is lacking in substance is lacking in substance. You can't change that being mad about it.

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