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Thread: 911 call: Gun in Easter fight was 'to prove point'

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    Re: 911 call: Gun in Easter fight was 'to prove point'

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant Noodle View Post
    ANDREW WELSH-HUGGINS, Associated Press Writer
    COLUMBUS, Ohio (AP) A woman who called 911 after a fatal shooting at an Easter party told a police dispatcher she shot a relative after she retrieved a gun to prove a point and it went off.

    The woman told the dispatcher that she shot her niece, apparently referring to a 19-year-old woman killed during a fight that police say started over a skimpy Easter outfit jean shorts and a green T-shirt tied up around her midriff.
    "I just shot my niece," the woman says calmly at the beginning of the 33-second call released to The Associated Press on Tuesday.

    "I didn't mean to do it," the woman said. "We was arguing, I tried to get my gun to prove a point, they got the rifle with me and it went off."



    911 Call: Gun in Easter Fight Was 'To Prove Point' - ABC News
    Guns are not for proving points, they are for killing people.

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    Re: 911 call: Gun in Easter fight was 'to prove point'

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    There are states that use FOID. Show proof that the use of FOID has had a substantial positive effect on accidents or crime IN those states and then we might have something to discuss. Until then it is just speculation. "I think that turning this fundamental right, enumerated in the Constitution, into a licenced privilege will help make things better" is an inadequate justification. The burden of proof is on you if you want to infringe on a fundamental right, whether that right is one of your "sacred cows" or not.

    If you simply want everyone who might own a gun to take a safety course, simply make a gun safety course a standard High School class that everyone takes in their Senior year. No need for FOID.
    I live in a state that uses FOID cards. It hasn't kept anyone from getting a gun that has been deemed acceptable to own a gun (those not on the NCIS list). I want to add education. I think it's a bad idea to leave that to be taught in High schools to everyone. Guns don't belong in schools and not every parent wants their kid handling guns. If you want a gun, take the responsibility upon yourself to take a gun safety course.


    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    The propagation of Nazi ideology resulted in millions of deaths in the 20th Century. Also culpable for many deaths are White Surpremacist ideology, Stalinism and Maoism. Words can indeed be far more dangerous than bullets. Epic Fail, my friend.


    Those words would have been harmless if they weren't backed up by guns.

    No one died from a racial epithet. A jew can't shoot someone who calls them a slur and claim it was self-defense.
    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
    Being a psychiatric patient does not mean that you are mentally ill.



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    Re: 911 call: Gun in Easter fight was 'to prove point'

    Nice try, but no cigar. You're flat wrong.


    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    I live in a state that uses FOID cards. It hasn't kept anyone from getting a gun that has been deemed acceptable to own a gun (those not on the NCIS list). I want to add education. I think it's a bad idea to leave that to be taught in High schools to everyone. Guns don't belong in schools and not every parent wants their kid handling guns. If you want a gun, take the responsibility upon yourself to take a gun safety course.
    Thirty and forty years ago, we had guns in school. Kids brought their hunting rifles and stored them in vehicles or the gym locker, to go hunting after school, in many rural areas. We also didn't have school shootings then, oddly enough. Your objection is emotional rather than rational.

    A high school senior is 17 or 18 years old... not exactly a little kid. They're mere months away from being able to enlist in the Military or buy their own guns. We're not talking about teaching 9yo's to handle an M16, we're talking about young adults and near-adults learning basic safety.

    It wouldn't even be necessary for them to actually shoot the guns to learn about basic safety. You could use unloaded weapons that have the firing pin removed, if that will soothe your delicate sensibilities.

    A simple H.S. safety course would be far less intrusive on 2nd Amendment rights than a FOID card that has to be renewed at the government's pleasure every few years. It would also ensure that even if someone isn't a gun owner, that if they come across a loaded firearm they know the basics of safety already.

    If your stance was REALLY about safety and that alone, you'd be willing to accept the very slight inconvenience of having a basic gun safety course for all HS seniors... but no, instead you'd prefer to force all 90 million gun owners to have to have government permission to own a gun, a FOID card to buy a gun or ammo, and have to renew it every 5 years and jump through any hoops the gov't cares to add, to exercise a right enumerated in the Constitution right after freedom of speech and religion.

    Sorry, that doesn't pass the smell test. I suspect you have an agenda of reducing the number of guns in private hands generally... perhaps you'd prefer that number to be zero.

    Again, there has been no proof offered of any justification for FOID. Alternatives exist which would not infringe on a Constitutional right, but you reject them for spurious reasons. You haven't advanced your position one millimeter.








    Those words would have been harmless if they weren't backed up by guns.

    No one died from a racial epithet. A jew can't shoot someone who calls them a slur and claim it was self-defense.
    Fail. There was war, genocide and racial oppression long before there were guns. Possibly you've heard of swords and spears.
    Last edited by Goshin; 04-11-10 at 08:15 PM.

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    Re: 911 call: Gun in Easter fight was 'to prove point'

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Nice try, but no cigar. You're flat wrong.




    Thirty and forty years ago, we had guns in school. Kids brought their hunting rifles and stored them in vehicles or the gym locker, to go hunting after school, in many rural areas. We also didn't have school shootings then, oddly enough. Your objection is emotional rather than rational.
    Right now, we do have school shootings. Your ignoring that is emotional rather than rational.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    A high school senior is 17 or 18 years old... not exactly a little kid. They're mere months away from being able to enlist in the Military or buy their own guns. We're not talking about teaching 9yo's to handle an M16, we're talking about young adults and near-adults learning basic safety.
    When kids stop cutting off fingers in shop class I'll consider mandatory gun safety training. Of course, Buddhists could probably opt out for religious reasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    It wouldn't even be necessary for them to actually shoot the guns to learn about basic safety. You could use unloaded weapons that have the firing pin removed, if that will soothe your delicate sensibilities.
    I don't have delicate sensibilies. I haven't insulted you. Who's being emotional here?

    But there is a point here. People who are against guns (Not me, I am all for guns), will demand that their kids sit out. I just think it should be the gun owner's personal responsibility the get the education. In fact, it's ironic that you want the govt. to do it for you seeing how it is in opposition to your libertarian sensibilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    A simple H.S. safety course would be far less intrusive on 2nd Amendment rights than a FOID card that has to be renewed at the government's pleasure every few years. It would also ensure that even if someone isn't a gun owner, that if they come across a loaded firearm they know the basics of safety already.
    I just don't see a FOID card as an infringement on your right to have a gun. Law enforcement officers I know endorse it because it's a picture ID that you must have to purchase firearms and ammunition. It also makes it effective for them to determine whether or not is allowed to have a gun. We both agree that there are some people who shouldn't be allowed to have a gun. The card helps the police and merchants.

    You do have a good point about non-gun owners having some education too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    If your stance was REALLY about safety and that alone, you'd be willing to accept the very slight inconvenience of having a basic gun safety course for all HS seniors... but no, instead you'd prefer to force all 90 million gun owners to have to have government permission to own a gun, a FOID card to buy a gun or ammo, and have to renew it every 5 years and jump through any hoops the gov't cares to add, to exercise a right enumerated in the Constitution right after freedom of speech and religion.
    My stance is about safety. This isn't a grab for guns. That will never happen. We love our guns too much. I don't see regulation for the public safety is an intrusion. You haven't shown how going and spending 15 minutes every five years is such a great intrusion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Sorry, that doesn't pass the smell test. I suspect you have an agenda of reducing the number of guns in private hands generally... perhaps you'd prefer that number to be zero.
    You're flat wrong.

    You are being emotional by jumping to this unsupported conclusion.

    I support responsible gun ownership.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Again, there has been no proof offered of any justification for FOID. Alternatives exist which would not infringe on a Constitutional right, but you reject them for spurious reasons. You haven't advanced your position one millimeter.

    You just haven't been willing to listen. You haven't shown how this would keep anyone from getting a gun.





    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Fail. There was war, genocide and racial oppression long before there were guns. Possibly you've heard of swords and spears.
    Your fail. You didn't mention Ghengis Kahn.
    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
    Being a psychiatric patient does not mean that you are mentally ill.



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    Re: 911 call: Gun in Easter fight was 'to prove point'

    Quote Originally Posted by Krazykid View Post
    That lady was not very smart. She should have made sure it wasn't even loaded when she held it at her. Or make sure safety was on.

    She shouldn't have brought it out in the first place, since her life was not in danger and she was not on a hunting trip.

    I shot my first gun (my grandpa was a hunter) when I was 13. I had to take a gun safety course, i grew up with very responsible gun owners (guns in gun cabinet, bullets elsewhere, all locked up so I as a child couldn't get them). I hunted often with my grandpa, but used my own gun only sometimes (since it wasn't really my thing, but spending time with papa was).

    One of the very first things and most important I learned is this: If you pull a gun out, you are doing so to use it, you are shooting to kill. If you don't have a legitimate reason to use it or fire it, don't have it in your hand.

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    Re: 911 call: Gun in Easter fight was 'to prove point'

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    Right now, we do have school shootings. Your ignoring that is emotional rather than rational.



    When kids stop cutting off fingers in shop class I'll consider mandatory gun safety training. Of course, Buddhists could probably opt out for religious reasons.
    Did you actually read my post? There's no reason that a basic safety course cannot be taught using non-firing guns. The worst you could do would be to pinch your finger.



    I don't have delicate sensibilies. I haven't insulted you. Who's being emotional here?

    But there is a point here. People who are against guns (Not me, I am all for guns), will demand that their kids sit out. I just think it should be the gun owner's personal responsibility the get the education. In fact, it's ironic that you want the govt. to do it for you seeing how it is in opposition to your libertarian sensibilities.
    Nope. I'm saying that if you insist that a safety course should be a pre-requisite to firearm ownership, the simplest solution, the one that infringes on a right enumerated in the BoR least, would be to have it as a course for H.S. seniors.
    There is absolutely no reason to tie a safety course to having a FOID card that has to be renewed, by jumping through whatever hoops the government wishes, every 5 years. This is completely spurious, the two are not inherently connected and need not be connected.

    If having a safety course is so important to you, then it could be done as a private enterprise function; when you pass the safety course, the notation is appended to your NICS data. When you go to buy a gun, NICS clears you if you are not red-flagged and have the notation of having taken a safety class.

    Personally, I'm not sure I'd even want to go that far. Yes, I would like for everyone to take a firearms safety course; making it compulsory would arguably be a 2A infringement unless you could prove the benefits would justify the infringement. Notice I said prove, not assume.


    I just don't see a FOID card as an infringement on your right to have a gun. Law enforcement officers I know endorse it because it's a picture ID that you must have to purchase firearms and ammunition. It also makes it effective for them to determine whether or not is allowed to have a gun. We both agree that there are some people who shouldn't be allowed to have a gun. The card helps the police and merchants.
    You already have to show a picture ID when they run your name through NICS.

    Criminals and loonies do not usually purchase guns through legal means anyway; NICS already tends to prevent that. You have not shown that there is any substantial improvement to public safety with FOID, and the burden of proof is on the FOID supporter to justify the infringement... just as it would be if we were talking about free speech.

    No where in the Constitution does it say that the 2nd Amendment can be infringed upon in ways that would not be tolerated for the 1st, 3rd, 4th-10th, as you seem to assume.


    I've explained to you why it is an infringement. I'll try once more.

    It turns a right, enumerated in the BoR, into a privilege that is licensed by the government, subject to whatever requirements gov wishes to impose on same, through the mechanism of having to renew the license every 5 years. Once gun owners accept such a mechanism, the requirements can be increased to the point where very few people can own a gun. This is no slippery slope argument, there are plenty of politicians and political lobbies that would love to use this method (or any other they can swing) to drastically limit who can lawfully own a gun, beyond that which is at all reasonable.

    You wouldn't tolerate a Free-speech card, or a Freedom of Religion card. The right to own firearms is equally fundamental.

    FOID makes it a privilege granted at the government's whim.



    My stance is about safety. This isn't a grab for guns. That will never happen. We love our guns too much. I don't see regulation for the public safety is an intrusion. You haven't shown how going and spending 15 minutes every five years is such a great intrusion.



    You're flat wrong.

    You are being emotional by jumping to this unsupported conclusion.

    I support responsible gun ownership.
    I will give you the benefit of the doubt... although it is difficult to do so, given your refusal to recognize that FOID is just as much an infringment on a right as a "free speech card" would be.

    I have explained that this level of regulation would make it easy for government to regulate gun ownership practically out of existence if it chose to do so, and pointed out that there are quite a few politicians, as well as lobbyists like the Brady Group, who would just love to use it for that purpose. I've made my point. What you refuse to recognize is that the burden of proof is on your side of the argument, to prove that an infringement on a fundamental right, of this magnitude, must be PROVEN to have substantial positive benefits for society as a whole, before we can even begin to debate whether it is justified. You have still offered no proof.



    You just haven't been willing to listen. You haven't shown how this would keep anyone from getting a gun.
    Keeping people from getting guns isn't my agenda. It would appear to be yours.

    I've mentioned NICS, whose purpose is to keep felons, druggies and loonies from legally buying a gun. I don't see what you think FOID would do, as far as preventing those "undesireables" from getting a gun legally, that NICS doesn't. Your only point is that it makes it convenient for LE to see who is "allowed to have a gun" (which phrasing makes it clear you fail to appreciate that this is a fundamental enumerated right we're talking about), and convenience is an inadequate justification for making a right into a privilege.


    Your fail. You didn't mention Ghengis Kahn.
    2 points for silly humor, -50 points for failing to admit that the point I made was valid.

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    Re: 911 call: Gun in Easter fight was 'to prove point'

    At any rate, this deep and abiding concern over safety issues is definately overstated.

    As I've pointed out with sourced stats, accidental deaths involving firearms are far far lower than accidental deaths involving automobiles, drowning, and several other common things. Accidental firearm deaths have declined dramatically over the past century, despite the fact that population has increased dramatically and the number of people owning firearms has also increased.

    You're making a mountain out of a molehill. It isn't a big enough problem to justify such an infringement on a fundamental Constitutional right.

    If you're really so concerned with safety, do something about the vastly greater number of traffic fatalities, drownings, or deaths from slips/trips/falls, all of which are far more common than accidental firearm fatalities.

    Statistically this isn't an issue of remotely the magnitude you make it out to be.

    Firearms Accidents and Firearms Safety Education
    Fatal Firearms Accidents for All Ages Annually: 1,134 nationwide in 1996. Rate of 0.4 per 100T population. Represents a roughly 90% decrease from record high in 1904. Accident rate is down by 65% since 1930, while U.S. population has doubled and number of privately-owned firearms has quadrupled. Compare to other types of fatal accidents, for all ages: Motor Vehicles 16.7/100T, Falls 4.8/100T, Poisoning 4.0/100T, Drowning 1.7/100T, Fires 1.6/100T, Choking 1.1/100T.(National Safety Council, National Center for Health Statistics, BATF, US Census)

    Fatal Firearms Accidents for Children 14 and Under Annually: 138 nationwide in 1996. About 3% of all fatal accidents under age 14. Represents a 75% decrease from record high of 550 in 1975. Compared to other types of fatal accidents for children: Motor Vehicles 44%, Fires 16%, Drowning 14%, Choking 4.5%.(Nat'l Safety Council, Nat'l Center for Health Statistics)

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