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Thread: 911 call: Gun in Easter fight was 'to prove point'

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    Re: 911 call: Gun in Easter fight was 'to prove point'

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Many tools used in emergency rooms can also be used to kill, like defibriliators, scalpels and rib spreaders. So can a baseball bat, a shovel, a kitchen knife, a rock, or your bare hands.

    One of the most common ways women are murdered is by manual strangulation (strangulation using the hands only). Maybe we need a hand-owners card...


    Those few states that use FOID need to be challenged in court for unConstitutionality. I'll speak to the GOA about it, sounds like a good one to take on.
    You are reaching now. Hand owner's card?
    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
    Being a psychiatric patient does not mean that you are mentally ill.



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    Re: 911 call: Gun in Easter fight was 'to prove point'

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    You are reaching now. Hand owner's card?
    No more than you are reaching.

    You support the FOID requirement. You have provided no evidence that it has any positive effects in the real world. I have asked the question whether you would tolerate that level of prior restraint being imposed on any other Constitutional right and gotten no direct answer. I have demonstrated that firearms are used to protect life more often than to take it.

    I've demonstrated with facts that firearm accidents are not a major problem, compared to auto accidents, drowning and other common accidents. You have agreed that FOID will not prevent the criminally-inclined from arming themselves.

    I am left to assume you support the FOID because... well, just because.

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    Re: 911 call: Gun in Easter fight was 'to prove point'

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    So you support requiring law-abiding citizens to get a license for freedom of speech and freedom of religion then? Seriously, that's a level of prior restraint that would not be tolerated if put on any of your other rights in the BoR.

    Nor have I seen any evidence that the FOID has significant positive impact. A right should not be infringed upon without a damn good reason, and there should be substantial REAL benefits from allowing the infringement to justify it, not just "in theory". As you admitted, nothing will keep criminals from getting guns... and as I demonstrated, cars are not as restricted as guns in a FOID state despite only a tiny fraction as many fatal accidents.

    If you really want to save lives, have the national speed limit reduced to 35. It would save far more lives than FOID ever could.
    Other rights aren't as immediately dangerous.

    You keep leaving out the education part of what I support. You can't be opposed that. If nothing else, the FOID card is a picture ID that says that you would have completed that course and are cleared to own a gun, responsibly. I just want to help ensure responsible, educated gun ownership.

    Cars get emission checks in some states. They require being registered every year, for exorbinant fees in some states. Cars are often impounded.

    Saving more lives regulating cars doesn't mitigate that extra lives could be saved by regulating guns by requiring mandatory education.
    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
    Being a psychiatric patient does not mean that you are mentally ill.



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    Re: 911 call: Gun in Easter fight was 'to prove point'

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    Other rights aren't as immediately dangerous.

    You keep leaving out the education part of what I support. You can't be opposed that. If nothing else, the FOID card is a picture ID that says that you would have completed that course and are cleared to own a gun, responsibly. I just want to help ensure responsible, educated gun ownership.

    Cars get emission checks in some states. They require being registered every year, for exorbinant fees in some states. Cars are often impounded.

    Saving more lives regulating cars doesn't mitigate that extra lives could be saved by regulating guns by requiring mandatory education.

    We've already established that driving cars is far more dangerous than gun ownership, yet car ownership isn't an enumerated right. You have not answered why a FOID card has to be renewed if it is mainly about completing an education course... if that were the case, it would be a lifetime card, not something you had to renew every 5 years. Nor have you demonstrated with facts that FOID actually reduces firearm accidents.

    Turning a right into a licensed privilege should not happen...especially not if there is no solid proof of substantial positive benefits from the infringement, if then.
    Last edited by Goshin; 04-09-10 at 01:45 AM.

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    Re: 911 call: Gun in Easter fight was 'to prove point'

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    No more than you are reaching.

    You support the FOID requirement. You have provided no evidence that it has any positive effects in the real world. I have asked the question whether you would tolerate that level of prior restraint being imposed on any other Constitutional right and gotten no direct answer. I have demonstrated that firearms are used to protect life more often than to take it.

    I've demonstrated with facts that firearm accidents are not a major problem, compared to auto accidents, drowning and other common accidents. You have agreed that FOID will not prevent the criminally-inclined from arming themselves.

    I am left to assume you support the FOID because... well, just because.
    It's proof that you are allowed to own a gun to an officer in the field, especially Conservation officers encountering hunters. Some people shouldn't have guns. If it is already determined, an officer doesn't have to try to make that call. I know lot's of gun owners who have no problem with the card. I also know some that need a course in gun safety.

    I support the fact that Free Speech is not absolute.

    I support the Fifth Amendment not applying to Income Tax.
    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
    Being a psychiatric patient does not mean that you are mentally ill.



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    Re: 911 call: Gun in Easter fight was 'to prove point'

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    We've already established that driving cars is far more dangerous than gun ownership, yet car ownership isn't an enumerated right. You have not answered why a FOID card has to be renewed if it is mainly about completing an education course... if that were the case, it would be a lifetime card, not something you had to renew every 5 years. Nor have you demonstrated with facts that FOID actually reduces firearm accidents.

    Turning a right into a licensed privilege should not happen...especially not if there is no solid proof of substantial positive benefits from the infringement, if then.
    You are using the statistics erroneously. Cars are ubiquitous and used as such. Of course they have a higher number of fatalities. But if you examine the rate of fatal accidents per use you would come to a different conclusion.

    They can take test every five years after the initial course. People don't always retain everything.

    You keep pretending that education won't prevent accidents. That is a positive benefit.
    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
    Being a psychiatric patient does not mean that you are mentally ill.



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    Re: 911 call: Gun in Easter fight was 'to prove point'

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    It's proof that you are allowed to own a gun to an officer in the field, especially Conservation officers encountering hunters. Some people shouldn't have guns. If it is already determined, an officer doesn't have to try to make that call. I know lot's of gun owners who have no problem with the card. I also know some that need a course in gun safety.

    I support the fact that Free Speech is not absolute.

    I support the Fifth Amendment not applying to Income Tax.

    I think there's a misunderstanding here. Simply because it makes things convenient for Conservation officers isn't remotely adequate reason.

    Gun ownership is an enumerated Constitutional right. Yes, rights are not without limits.... but to limit a right with prior restraint, as the FOID clearly does, you must demonstrate the following:
    1. A compelling societal intrest in establishing the restriction;
    2. That the restriction will have actual substantial positive benefits to society as a whole, not merely theoretical benefits.

    Since FOID is definately a restriction on an enumerated right, the burden is on you to establish that it is worth allowing a core right to be thus restricted. So far I haven't seen a single fact establishing that FOID provides any substantial benefits to society.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

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    Re: 911 call: Gun in Easter fight was 'to prove point'

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post

    You keep pretending that education won't prevent accidents. That is a positive benefit.

    You haven't proven that it has any effect on accidents, let alone a substantial effect that would make an infringement on a core right enumerated in the BoR potentially justifiable. You have provided no such evidence, merely assumptions.

    Burden of proof is in your court.
    Last edited by Goshin; 04-09-10 at 01:59 AM.

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    Re: 911 call: Gun in Easter fight was 'to prove point'

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    I think there's a misunderstanding here. Simply because it makes things convenient for Conservation officers isn't remotely adequate reason.

    Gun ownership is an enumerated Constitutional right. Yes, rights are not without limits.... but to limit a right with prior restraint, as the FOID clearly does, you must demonstrate the following:
    1. A compelling societal intrest in establishing the restriction;
    2. That the restriction will have actual substantial positive benefits to society as a whole, not merely theoretical benefits.

    Since FOID is definately a restriction on an enumerated right, the burden is on you to establish that it is worth allowing a core right to be thus restricted. So far I haven't seen a single fact establishing that FOID provides any substantial benefits to society.
    It isn't about making things convenient. It's about an opportunity to take guns away from someone who shouldn't have them. Just because you can't prevent all undesirable people from owning guns doesn't mean you shouldn't take steps to prevent it and enforce the law. This makes society safer, that is the compelling social interest.
    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
    Being a psychiatric patient does not mean that you are mentally ill.



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    Re: 911 call: Gun in Easter fight was 'to prove point'

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    You haven't proven that it has any effect on accidents, let alone a substantial effect that would make an infringement on a core right enumerated in the BoR potentially justifiable. You have provided no such evidence, merely assumptions.

    Burden of proof is in your court.
    Education will prevent accidents. Right now, ignorant people have accidents with guns. The number could be reduced by requiring education. This is just common sense.
    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
    Being a psychiatric patient does not mean that you are mentally ill.



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