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Thread: 911 call: Gun in Easter fight was 'to prove point'

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    Re: 911 call: Gun in Easter fight was 'to prove point'

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Not to mention about 7 times more people die in traffic accidents than are ever murdered with a gun.
    Cars have a purpose other than to destroy. Cars are used far more often. Gun accidents due to irresponsibility matter too.
    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
    Being a psychiatric patient does not mean that you are mentally ill.



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    Re: 911 call: Gun in Easter fight was 'to prove point'

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    To say "at the government's whim" isn't an honest representation of reality. There are valid reasons that some people shouldn't have guns. The public safety trumps an individual right.
    Well, oddly enough we have this NICS (nat'l instant check system) thing. It checks to see if a buyer is a felon, loonie or otherwise barred from legal gun ownership. There's no need for a FOID card that you have to renew every 5 years to keep known lowlifes from being able to legally purchase a gun.

    While we're at it, if you could demonstrate that requiring FOID has kept bad people from getting guns illegally anyway... ?



    One vote can't take a life.

    It's a poor analogy. It takes a whole lot of people to "pull the trigger" as far as voting is concerned. A vote can't be pointed at your head. A vote doesn't have the sole purpose of destroying something.
    Perhaps it isn't the best analogy, despite the fact that votes can collectively alter laws that lives hinge on.

    Driver's licences aren't really a good analogy either, because driving isn't a right enumerated in the Constitution right after freedom of speech...but let's run with that one a bit.

    A driver's license is ludicrously easy to get. Yet, far more people die in traffic accidents than are murdered with firearms. I don't hear anyone calling for a COID (car owner's ID) that has to be renewed every 5 years; that requires extensive background checks and so forth; that if you are denied renewal requires you to give the government any and all vehicles you might own.

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    Re: 911 call: Gun in Easter fight was 'to prove point'

    Meh. Bad parenting. She should have listened to her aunt and wore appropriate clothing.Resolved with no drama.
    Thank you

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    Re: 911 call: Gun in Easter fight was 'to prove point'

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    Cars have a purpose other than to destroy. Cars are used far more often. Gun accidents due to irresponsibility matter too.
    Guns are also used to save lives, and far more often than they are used to take lives, even by the most low-ball estimates.

    About 30,000 people each year die due to gunshot wounds. This includes everything: suicides (about half), police shootings, self-defense, murder, and accidents.

    The lowest low-ball figure, from a government agency, on how many times firearms are used defensively each year is 68,000; another gov't study said 82,000. One of the highest estimates is the Kleck study, which says 2.5 million annually, usually with no shots fired. Assume the truth lies somewhere between... guns are used to protect life many many times more often than to take it.


    the Kleck Study:
    Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology

    Number Of Protective Uses Of Firearms In U.S: Projected at a minimum of 2.5 million cases annually, equal to 1% of total U.S. population each year. Criminal assailants are killed by their victims or others in only about 0.1%, and wounded in only about 1.0% of incidents as described above. Most such crimes are prevented by mere presence of a firearm in the hands of an intended victim.(Dr. Gary Kleck, PhD, Florida State University, Targeting Guns, 1998)

    A 1993 Gallup Poll study (hardly a conservative partisan group) found a likely annual rate of defensive gun use (DGU) of 777,153 per year in the US.
    An LA Times 1994 study found an implied national DGU of 3,609,682.

    National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS).

    Data from the NCVS imply that each year there are only about 68,000 defensive uses of guns in connection with assaults and robberies, [16] or about 80,000 to 82,000 if one adds in uses linked with household burglaries. [17] These figures are less than one ninth of the estimates implied by the results of at least thirteen other surveys, summarized in Table 1, most of which have been previously reported. [18] The NCVS estimates imply that about 0.09 of 1% of U.S. households experience a defensive gun use (DGU) in any one year, compared to the Mauser survey's estimate of 3.79% of households over a five year period, or about 0.76% in any one year, assuming an even distribution over the five year period, and no repeat uses. [19]
    The strongest evidence that a measurement is inaccurate is that it is inconsistent with many other independent measurements or observations of the same phenomenon; indeed, some would argue that this is ultimately the only way of knowing that a measurement is wrong. Therefore, one might suppose that the gross inconsistency of the NCVS-based estimates with all other known estimates, each derived from sources with no known flaws even remotely substantial enough to account for nine-to-one, or more, discrepancies, would be sufficient to persuade any serious scholar that the NCVS estimates are unreliable.
    ...The NCVS was not designed to estimate how often people resist crime using a gun. It was designed primarily to estimate national victimization levels; it incidentally happens to include a few self-protection questions which include response categories covering resistance with a gun.

    The Kleck study concluded that there were possibly as many as 2.5 million defensive gun uses per year, many of which involved no shots fired or no one injured, and many of which were not reported:
    The most technically sound estimates presented in Table 2 are those based on the shorter one-year recall period that rely on Rs' first-hand accounts of their own experiences (person-based estimates). These estimates appear in the first two columns. They indicate that each year in the U.S. there are about 2.2 to 2.5 million DGUs of all types by civilians against humans, with about 1.5 to 1.9 million of the incidents involving use of handguns.
    Even if you take the Kleck study with a grain of salt, it is clear there are a lot more than defensive gun uses than there are unjustified firearm deaths. Many times more.



    As for accidents...the last time I checked automobile fatal accidents were around 40,000.

    Firearms Accidents and Firearms Safety Education
    Fatal Firearms Accidents for All Ages Annually: 1,134 nationwide in 1996. Rate of 0.4 per 100M population. Represents a roughly 90% decrease from record high in 1904. Accident rate is down by 65% since 1930, while U.S. population has doubled and number of privately-owned firearms has quadrupled. Compare to other types of fatal accidents, for all ages: Motor Vehicles 16.7/100M, Falls 4.8/100M, Poisoning 4.0/100M, Drowning 1.7/100M, Fires 1.6/100M, Choking 1.1/100M.(National Safety Council, National Center for Health Statistics, BATF, US Census)

    Fatal Firearms Accidents for Children 14 and Under Annually: 138 nationwide in 1996. About 3% of all fatal accidents under age 14. Represents a 75% decrease from record high of 550 in 1975. Compared to other types of fatal accidents for children: Motor Vehicles 44%, Fires 16%, Drowning 14%, Choking 4.5%.(Nat'l Safety Council, Nat'l Center for Health Statistics)
    Last edited by Goshin; 04-09-10 at 12:43 AM.

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    Re: 911 call: Gun in Easter fight was 'to prove point'

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Well, oddly enough we have this NICS (nat'l instant check system) thing. It checks to see if a buyer is a felon, loonie or otherwise barred from legal gun ownership. There's no need for a FOID card that you have to renew every 5 years to keep known lowlifes from being able to legally purchase a gun.

    While we're at it, if you could demonstrate that requiring FOID has kept bad people from getting guns illegally anyway... ?
    Please notice that I endorse coupling this with a gun safety course. Education alone will reduce needless deaths that may occur from accidents.

    Of course outlaws will still get guns. Nothing will prevent that.



    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Perhaps it isn't the best analogy, despite the fact that votes can collectively alter laws that lives hinge on.

    Driver's licences aren't really a good analogy either, because driving isn't a right enumerated in the Constitution right after freedom of speech...but let's run with that one a bit.

    A driver's license is ludicrously easy to get. Yet, far more people die in traffic accidents than are murdered with firearms. I don't hear anyone calling for a COID (car owner's ID) that has to be renewed every 5 years; that requires extensive background checks and so forth; that if you are denied renewal requires you to give the government any and all vehicles you might own.
    In my state they can prevent you from getting registration for your car. You do have to take a test to get it renewed, just not every time. And though it doesn' happen often enough, Elderly people are denied licenses.
    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
    Being a psychiatric patient does not mean that you are mentally ill.



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    Re: 911 call: Gun in Easter fight was 'to prove point'

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    Please notice that I endorse coupling this with a gun safety course. Education alone will reduce needless deaths that may occur from accidents.

    Of course outlaws will still get guns. Nothing will prevent that.

    .
    If it's mostly about a gun safety course, why does a FOID have to be renewed every 5 years? Answer: gov't bureaucracy making a right into a privilege.


    I invite you to examine the data I posted on accidents.

    Fatal automobile accidents are about 32 times more common than fatal firearms accidents; fatal gun accidents are not a major problem compared to many other types of fatal accidents... and again, driving isn't a right enumerated in the Constitution. Firearm ownership is.
    Last edited by Goshin; 04-09-10 at 12:56 AM.

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    Re: 911 call: Gun in Easter fight was 'to prove point'

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Guns are also used to save lives, and far more often than they are used to take lives, even by the most low-ball estimates.
    Guns have legitimate purposes, I'm not trying to demonize them. I'm just saying that they are dangerous. They aren't a tool used in emergency rooms.


    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    As for accidents...the last time I checked automobile fatal accidents were around 40,000.
    That would be lower if cars were required to have the breathalyzer ignition system.
    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
    Being a psychiatric patient does not mean that you are mentally ill.



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    Re: 911 call: Gun in Easter fight was 'to prove point'

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    If it's mostly about a gun safety course, why does a FOID have to be renewed every 5 years? Answer: gov't bureaucracy making a right into a privilege.
    With rights come responsibilities. It makes sense to be proactive versus reactive with regards to responsible gun ownership. There are regulations on other rights as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    I invite you to examine the data I posted on accidents.

    Fatal automobile accidents are about 32 times more common than fatal firearms accidents; fatal gun accidents are not a major problem compared to many other types of fatal accidents... and again, driving isn't a right enumerated in the Constitution. Firearm ownership is.
    Rights are not absolute. Cars are used more than 32 times more than guns are.
    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
    Being a psychiatric patient does not mean that you are mentally ill.



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    Re: 911 call: Gun in Easter fight was 'to prove point'

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    Guns have legitimate purposes, I'm not trying to demonize them. I'm just saying that they are dangerous. They aren't a tool used in emergency rooms.

    Many tools used in emergency rooms can also be used to kill, like defibriliators, scalpels and rib spreaders. So can a baseball bat, a shovel, a kitchen knife, a rock, or your bare hands.

    One of the most common ways women are murdered is by manual strangulation (strangulation using the hands only). Maybe we need a hand-owners card...


    Those few states that use FOID need to be challenged in court for unConstitutionality. I'll speak to the GOA about it, sounds like a good one to take on.

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    Re: 911 call: Gun in Easter fight was 'to prove point'

    Quote Originally Posted by independent_thinker2002 View Post
    With rights come responsibilities. It makes sense to be proactive versus reactive with regards to responsible gun ownership. There are regulations on other rights as well.



    Rights are not absolute. Cars are used more than 32 times more than guns are.
    So you support requiring law-abiding citizens to get a license for freedom of speech and freedom of religion then? Seriously, that's a level of prior restraint that would not be tolerated if put on any of your other rights in the BoR.

    Nor have I seen any evidence that the FOID has significant positive impact. A right should not be infringed upon without a damn good reason, and there should be substantial REAL benefits from allowing the infringement to justify it, not just "in theory". As you admitted, nothing will keep criminals from getting guns... and as I demonstrated, cars are not as restricted as guns in a FOID state despite only a tiny fraction as many fatal accidents.

    If you really want to save lives, have the national speed limit reduced to 35. It would save far more lives than FOID ever could.
    Last edited by Goshin; 04-09-10 at 01:14 AM.

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