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Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

MetalGear said:
War is a dirty business. It was also a stupid mistake on the part of all parties involved. Emotionally charged orders usually result in civilian deaths however. Firstly, Iraq, Waziristan, Pakistan....irrelevant. We make it clear as military personnel repeatedly that they should NOT walk around with guns in open public, especially RPG's. Thats our job.
If they get shot in the arse for holding a weapon you can hardly blame the military for engaging them as a precautionary weapon and deterrent against terrorism.
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But in reality that means that no foreign journalist, foreign aid workers etc.. couldn't move around in Iraq. Because either you go out on the street without armed guardes and get kidnaped our worsed or you take with you armed guards and get shot by the american military.
 
Bergslagstroll said:
But in reality that means that no foreign journalist, foreign aid workers etc.. couldn't move around in Iraq. Because either you go out on the street without armed guardes and get kidnaped our worsed or you take with you armed guards and get shot by the american military.
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Listen, more likely your gonna survive a kidnapping then you will a NATO Apache.

Journalists, nobody should be roaming the streets in areas as unstable as the suburbs of Baghdad. Iraq is surprisingly not as dangerous as you may think, NATO offensives and local community programmes have really started to kick off; it is fine to walk about without a gun but you need to be careful, walk in with the crowds, keep any bags you have close to you and DO NOT attend political rally's.

I mean, having body guards with Klashikovs are one thing; having body guards with RPG's is something else. Unless your planning on taking down a brigade of cars or a helicopter, what the hell do you intend to kill with such a large impact distant combat weapon?
 
If you are a "journalist" embedded with the enemy... You get what you get. :shrug:
 
I love how lefties have the nerve to critique a military operation from halfway around the world with absolutely no context of what it's like to be in a war 24 hours a day. It must come from repeatedly backing down from difficult situations continually.
 
Erod said:
I love how lefties have the nerve to critique a military operation from halfway around the world with absolutely no context of what it's like to be in a war 24 hours a day. It must come from repeatedly backing down from difficult situations continually.
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You have a very odd notion of who is a lefty and who isn't. It's almost as if you wanted to point fingers with no concern for accuracy.
 
My assessment is that:
1) there were friendly forces in the area
2) there was a group of Iraqi men with weapons (at least one clearly visible)
3) the Iraqi men were on move and some of their movements were suspicious
4) the American pilots seemed overly anxious and cheerful at the prospect of killing
5) several minutes passed and a van of what appears to be unarmed civilians come to help an obviously seriously wounded man
6) I can see no justification for shooting the van and it's occupants

**** happens in war but there are problems with this engagement.
 
NoJingoLingo said:
My assessment is that:
1) there were friendly forces in the area
2) there was a group of Iraqi men with weapons (at least one clearly visible)
3) the Iraqi men were on move and some of their movements were suspicious
4) the American pilots seemed overly anxious and cheerful at the prospect of killing
5) several minutes passed and a van of what appears to be unarmed civilians come to help an obviously seriously wounded man
6) I can see no justification for shooting the van and it's occupants

**** happens in war but there are problems with this engagement.
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They slotted the getaway car. Or the combat equivelent thereof.
 
Alvin T. Grey said:
They slotted the getaway car. Or the combat equivelent thereof.
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Can/ should Obama be treated as a war criminal. Perhaps arrested if he leaves the country.
 
MetalGear said:
Wikileaks can be found here:

WikiLeaks

The video can be viewed here:

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.



BBC News - WikiLeaks posts 'killing' video

Disturbing video to say the least.
I served in Iraq and witnessed many strategic errors that cost the lives of many innocents, but unfortunately war is trial and error and we need to learn from our mistakes and minimize the risk while increasing success.

This footage depicts one of those mistakes, but the killings where unintentional and nobody is to blame but those who ordered the operation. I know as i have seen that there are many more videos yet to be brought to the public eye and its only a matter of time they do.
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If the British and Americans have the right to shout about individuals killing our civilians then the Iraqis should reserve the right to drag some of our soldiers to court in their country.

I don't know whether the worst bit is watching the journalist trying crawl away or the fact they shot even tho they were in no immediate danger or were being fired on by the individuals on the street, the laughing or the fact it took so many years for this to be released.

I wonder how many more videos there are of British and American soldiers killing civilians that have been hidden from public view
 
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Lord Tammerlain said:
When did Iraq mess with America?
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Late 1980s onward, climaxing with Saddam re-basing his oil on the Euro instead of the Dollar. Saddam was the lesser of 2 evils when we installed him to combat our mutual enemy, Iran, but then he turned on us. He bit the hand that fed him.
 
Crunch said:
What planet were you on between 1991 and 2003?
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I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt and assuming he was in grade school, unaware of global politics.
 
Gander said:
No, but there should be a demonstration of hostile intent before engaging. Simply walking out in the open with an AK-47 (which is commonplace in Iraq) is not a sufficient demonstration of hostility.
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So like..... you want to wait until someone kills you before you defend yourself?
 
Regardless of the reasoning behind attacking those men (which I think was totally justified), and the reasoning behind attacking the van (which I think is more dubious), I don't think doing it with a 30mm cannon from a helicopter can be justified at all.

That was a dense residential area.
 
Laila said:
If the British and Americans have the right to shout about individuals killing our civilians then the Iraqis should reserve the right to drag some of our soldiers to court in their country.

I don't know whether the worst bit is watching the journalist trying crawl away or the fact they shot even tho they were in no immediate danger or were being fired on by the individuals on the street, the laughing or the fact it took so many years for this to be released.

I wonder how many more videos there are of British and American soldiers killing civilians that have been hidden from public view
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And now you can see the balls... or maybe desperation it took for mild torture victims pictures to be released early on and then have alllllll the bad ones depicting murder (didnt obama pretty much almost admit that or no?)there after scooped up and locked away because it would be a threat to national security. Why? Because they must be so grotesque that the American people would have shook the ground with there marches until the very foundation that allowed this all to happened crumbled into dust. They can't afford to tell my fellow Americans the truth.

Incidents like this only go to prove that the American people need to see all misdeeds we do. Humans need to see what exactly we did to torture. And if it horrible then discipline must come lawfully. And if they are all deleted then everything else Obama and Bush have done need to be picked with a fine tooth comb. Past, present and future. Only then can we truly weigh them against our good deeds.
 
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MetalGear said:
War is a dirty business. It was also a stupid mistake on the part of all parties involved. Emotionally charged orders usually result in civilian deaths however. Firstly, Iraq, Waziristan, Pakistan....irrelevant. We make it clear as military personnel repeatedly that they should NOT walk around with guns in open public, especially RPG's. Thats our job.
If they get shot in the arse for holding a weapon you can hardly blame the military for engaging them as a precautionary weapon and deterrent against terrorism.
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The lives of the Iraqis rest in our hands. We are there to protect it's civilians, not kill them. I don't give a damn if "war is a dirty business". We have the most advanced military technology and tactics in the world, and yet we still use the tactic "if it looks like they have a gun, shoot them". If I were in their boots, I would have waited to see what the group did before shooting them up. Innocent civilians... wiped off the face of the earth... and no one should be to blame? I'll bet you a million dollars that members of the family of any one of those people killed joined the Anti-American militias... those we label as "terrorists" for fighting our troops.
 
new coup for you said:
Regardless of the reasoning behind attacking those men (which I think was totally justified), and the reasoning behind attacking the van (which I think is more dubious), I don't think doing it with a 30mm cannon from a helicopter can be justified at all.

That was a dense residential area.
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It was a tight grouping of shots.
 
Jucon said:
The lives of the Iraqis rest in our hands. We are there to protect it's civilians, not kill them. I don't give a damn if "war is a dirty business". We have the most advanced military technology and tactics in the world, and yet we still use the tactic "if it looks like they have a gun, shoot them".
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OK i think you have completely missed the point.
As i have already pointed out, it is nobodies fault other than that of the men. My problem lies with the fact that the journalists where unarmed but killed anyway.

Not once in my time working on the field did i ever come across tech that could scan and distinguish between a civilian and a terrorist, sorry, and i worked with some pretty complex gadgets.

In an area of Baghdad that is highly volatile and warped with violence, armed men carrying Kalashnikov's and RPG's are deemed a threat and a possible target. Shooting them was an appropriate response in a perimeter where US military personnel where present.

In a society where carrying guns are forbidden, it certainly raises an eyebrow and gives rise to labeling those who openly carry heavy warfare weaponary in areas where the Taliban frequently raid and do the same.

Infact what concerned me the most was this; what was that man doing with a missile launcher for goodness sakes? An RPG? Come on.

If I were in their boots, I would have waited to see what the group did before shooting them up. Innocent civilians... wiped off the face of the earth... and no one should be to blame?
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Both sides made fatal mistakes.
I can understand the need for a firearm but an AK47 and an RPG? Sorry, thats just pushing it.
Also, looking at it from the angle of an Apache, i too would have deemed it highly suspicious and would have engaged. It is a shame those who gave the thumbs up didn't investigate it further, but in Iraq you do not take your chances, and i cannot say i blame those involved in the incident.

The US military lied about the incident and that was also another mistake.
 
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MetalGear said:
OK i think you have completely missed the point.
As i have already pointed out, it is nobodies fault other than that of the men. My problem lies with the fact that the journalists where unarmed but killed anyway.
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So...... you want the guys in the chopper to land, get out, and ask the journalists (who of course, didn't have big signs on their backs stating they were journalists) to please leave the area as we want to open fire on these heavily armed insurgents and you guys might be in danger.......... "oh, and you heavily armed guys just stay right there....... I'm sure this won't take but a minute more of your time"

You were kidding, right?
 
Crunch said:
So...... you want the guys in the chopper to land, get out, and ask the journalists (who of course, didn't have big signs on their backs stating they were journalists) to please leave the area as we want to open fire on these heavily armed insurgents and you guys might be in danger.......... "oh, and you heavily armed guys just stay right there....... I'm sure this won't take but a minute more of your time"

You were kidding, right?
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I said it concerned me, on a humanitarian level.
I didn't say i wouldn't have shot them if i was in there place. :shrug:
 
MetalGear said:
OK i think you have completely missed the point.
As i have already pointed out, it is nobodies fault other than that of the men. My problem lies with the fact that the journalists where unarmed but killed anyway.
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When i say "men" i meant the armed Iraqi's, just to be clear.
 
Laila said:
If the British and Americans have the right to shout about individuals killing our civilians then the Iraqis should reserve the right to drag some of our soldiers to court in their country.

I don't know whether the worst bit is watching the journalist trying crawl away or the fact they shot even tho they were in no immediate danger or were being fired on by the individuals on the street, the laughing or the fact it took so many years for this to be released.

I wonder how many more videos there are of British and American soldiers killing civilians that have been hidden from public view
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You can't effect an arrest from a helicopter. If you engage an enemy you kill them.
It prevents you from having to engage the same target next month. Simple as.
 
Jucon said:
The lives of the Iraqis rest in our hands. We are there to protect it's civilians, not kill them. I don't give a damn if "war is a dirty business". We have the most advanced military technology and tactics in the world, and yet we still use the tactic "if it looks like they have a gun, shoot them". If I were in their boots, I would have waited to see what the group did before shooting them up. Innocent civilians... wiped off the face of the earth... and no one should be to blame? I'll bet you a million dollars that members of the family of any one of those people killed joined the Anti-American militias... those we label as "terrorists" for fighting our troops.
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Wrong on so many levels.
 
Nothing like debating actions that happened in 2007 - we've redefined our approaches and methods since then and apparently some people haven't noticed.

Of course, it's impossible to notice when you're not actually involved and on the ground or in the air calling the commands and requesting clearance to fire.

Yep! Nothing like every action of every military personal being questioned and criticised by the Net Watchers from the safety of their internet and home and without any reprocussions who also don't have the balls to actually join any force and fight for any cause - their only weapon is to debate these things with the greatest netrage fervor they can muster.

Seems to me that if all the 'God NO!' debaters on this issue want to change things even more then perhaps they should join the military and work their way to the top of command, thus enabling them the power to change all that they don't agree with.

Ah, but that's not going to happen, now is it. Because that would require getting involved and giving a ****, putting yourself in danger's way and maning up (or womaning up).

Which, apparently, is far outside the box of the Net Watcher's safey zone; far be it from us to encourage them to become active rather than passive on all these issues.
 
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