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Thread: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

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    Re: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by faminedynasty View Post
    I don't think the conservatives are being dishonest. I believe that the social conditioning and the imposed dehumanization of the Iraqi "enemy" has had such an impact on their minds that they believe what they are saying.
    This 'dehumanization' is not a partisan issue.

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    Re: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    I know what with the constant bombardment of twoofers constantly running a muck and infecting people with their stupid bull****.
    Don't get me wrong, I like a good blood bath from time to time. and the odd dismemberment, before breakfast. but I have learned to temper my primal desire, with what is known as civilized behavior, for the good of the whole. I choose to be the way I am. It is not like I don't have unlimited options. You might take it under advisement.
    "Don't be particular bout nothin, but the company you keep"

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    Re: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by NoJingoLingo View Post
    We'll take your lack of defense as evidence that you called our Troops assholes and pedophiles.



    Quote and link. Your harrassment via lying will not be tolerated.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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    Re: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

    "We become, what we do"
    "Don't be particular bout nothin, but the company you keep"

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    Re: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by Skateguy View Post
    "We become, what we do"
    Dreams are everything we don't do. :p
    I'm Finding it Harder to be a Gentleman, White Stripes ~ "You think I care about me and only me. When every girl needs help climbing up a tree."

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    Educator Alvin T. Grey's Avatar
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    Re: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by NoJingoLingo View Post
    If you were ever heavily wounded you'd probably want anyone nearby to help you and therefore people with the ability to empathize might wait a few minutes after the shooting stops (which they did) before rushing in to try and save a humans life. There is no question that their actions proved fatal, the question is whether it was necessary to kill them when they were clearly not engaging in combat themselves and were clearly trying to help a wounded individual. The radio operator even says they are picking up bodies and weapons (of course he lied about them picking up weapons).
    Exactly. The Apache orbited the scene and only reengaged when the van arrived.


    Nor was there a weapon near Saaed nor was anyone picking up any weapons.
    Hindsight


    That would depend on the ROE in an urban setting where non-combatants/civilians are present. If an occupying force wounded my neighbor/countryman/fellow human, I would want to try and save his life, not wait for an ambulance.
    That doesn't depend on the ROE as such. The ROE for a signatory can't violate the GCs. They can be more stringent, but not more lax. I thought the requirements we are discussing were the GCs?


    You claim to be fully educated so I have to wonder what part of this do you not understand: "Persons who do not or can no longer take part in the hostilities are entitled to respect for their life and for their physical and mental integrity. Such persons must in all circumstances be protected and treated with humanity, without any unfavorable distinction whatever.

    It is forbidden to kill or wound an adversary who surrenders or who can no longer take part in the fighting.
    "
    Yes I am fully educated in those matters as I have had to follow them on more than one occasion.
    I'll make it really simple for you;
    The GC sections you cite depend on the wounded combatant being in your custody. They are there to prevent the execution of prisoners or wounded on the battlefield or in detention. The target on the ground was not in custody and he and not surrendered.


    Huh? Dressed as the enemy, you mean plain civilian clothes?
    No. In plain civillian clothes and carrying weapons openly in a combat zone


    I don't necessarily disagree with that except for the notion that some people care about others and probably felt like his life was rapidly ending from his wounds.
    And the kids?


    In your opinion.
    Yes.
    If life gives you Melons you probably have dyslexia.

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    Re: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by Degreez View Post
    The van is automatically suspect. That does not make it automatically hostile. The US should have made all efforts to identify the van as hostile before engaging with it.


    The First Geneva Convention protects spontaneous collection and care for the sick and wounded. You cannot engage with ANYONE that is actively collecting and caring for the sick and wounded. It is also America's obligation as the Occupying Power to give both physical and moral care to the sick and wounded.
    You are almost 100% correct.
    International Humanitarian Law - Geneva Convention 1864
    -snip-
    Art. 7. A distinctive and uniform flag shall be adopted for hospitals, ambulances and evacuation parties. It should in all circumstances be accompanied by the national flag.
    An armlet may also be worn by personnel enjoying neutrality but its issue shall be left to the military authorities.
    Both flag and armlet shall bear a red cross on a white ground.

    The veichles and personel have to be marked as an ambulance in order to prevent just such an occurance. The US didn't break the GCs in this one.
    If life gives you Melons you probably have dyslexia.

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    Re: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by Alvin T. Grey View Post
    Exactly. The Apache orbited the scene and only reengaged when the van arrived.
    Right, and they had no call to reengage. They wanted to reengage and so they found an excuse to do so.

    Hindsight
    Not entirely, Seems to me they could see weapons when they opened fire. The gunner even begs the wounded man to pick up a weapon so... Besides, hindsight is being used a lot in this thread in favor of the soldiers.
    That doesn't depend on the ROE as such. The ROE for a signatory can't violate the GCs. They can be more stringent, but not more lax. I thought the requirements we are discussing were the GCs?
    Huh? RULES OF ENGAGEMENT. I assume you understand that. How can the ROE not be a factor? And yes we are talking about the GC and guess what... The ROE too...

    Yes I am fully educated in those matters as I have had to follow them on more than one occasion.
    I'll make it really simple for you;
    The GC sections you cite depend on the wounded combatant being in your custody. They are there to prevent the execution of prisoners or wounded on the battlefield or in detention. The target on the ground was not in custody and he and not surrendered.
    I'm not going to make it so simple for you. Please quote the GC where it explicitly details that the sections I'm quoting apply only to those in custody.

    No. In plain civillian clothes and carrying weapons openly in a combat zone
    The people getting out of the van didn't have any. If the gunner could see weapons when they were there then he can surely see when weapons are not in hand.
    And the kids?
    Unfortunately they apparently didn't stop to think about the kids getting shot. They probably thought the shooting was over and first and foremost on their mind seems to have been the heavily wounded man.

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    Re: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by NoJingoLingo View Post
    Right, and they had no call to reengage. They wanted to reengage and so they found an excuse to do so.
    That would be their job.



    Huh? RULES OF ENGAGEMENT. I assume you understand that. How can the ROE not be a factor? And yes we are talking about the GC and guess what... The ROE too...
    The ROE changes mission to mission or even during the same mission. The can go from "Do not fire under any circumstance" to "Nuclear weapons are authorized" and every point in between. What they can't do is break the law.
    We do not know the ROE taht they were operating under. We do not know the exact details of the mission that they had to do. We do know what the GCs contain, and you were the one that brought that standard in, so that is what we are discussing.


    I'm not going to make it so simple for you. Please quote the GC where it explicitly details that the sections I'm quoting apply only to those in custody.
    GCI Article 3. (1)
    Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms
    At which part of the video did the Iraqi surrender? - He didn't.

    and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause,
    At which part of the video did the Apache crew or the first people on the scene verify that the Iraqi was hors de combat?
    They didn't and they don't need to.

    So until he A) surrenders, or B) dies, he is a legitimate target. Once he has surrenderd (ie in your custody) or verified that he is hors de combat by either yourself or a recognized medical service, You are free to kill the **** out of him.


    Following the logic you use common practice in war is illegal if you drop more than one bomb because there may be wounded from the first one, or if you shoot someone with more than one round..
    Ok that's taking the logic to the extreme, but it is well to remember that the GCs recognize the fact that the primary job of a soldier is to kill the enemy and it allows them to do that. What they do not allow them to do is to kick them in the nads once they are down so to speak.

    Unfortunately they apparently didn't stop to think about the kids getting shot. They probably thought the shooting was over and first and foremost on their mind seems to have been the heavily wounded man.
    Or the getaway..
    Remember the van was not marked. The Apache crew couldn't see inside the van and had no way of distinguishing it from a support vehicle for terrorists.
    If life gives you Melons you probably have dyslexia.

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    Re: Leaked footage from Apache showing "US military slaughter" in Baghdad

    Quote Originally Posted by Skateguy View Post
    "We become, what we do"
    This can be true. But Dreams are also the blue print of what we do in the Future. I'm living my dream daily. Which is why I smile so much.
    "Don't be particular bout nothin, but the company you keep"

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